M., Joseph, November 16, 1973, tape 4, side 1

Joseph M.: Over here a while, then over yonder a while. They don't have anything anywhere. You see what I mean? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Well, that's the kind of-- they's the kind of people that they were bringing up here. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Uh, they would, uh. They go down and they pick up those fellas, and this is, I would say, a scalawag. That's the way I put it. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And they bring them this, put them all together, you know, and bring them up and some of them bad. You know, if you said-- if you said P they said Sam [??]. And they're not gonna agree with anything you say. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And if you don't agree with them, then they ready to kill you or you kill them. So much so here up at here in Homestead, we had 2, 3 kids killed here. One fella down there one night-- he worked with me. He came out the mill and he went home. Boys down there at the Union restaurant, down corner 69. And he shaved, took it ready to stick it up here, you know, and this. He go on the bus and get it backwards. Soon as he got up there. We had a policeman on the force, the name of Tom Pulaski. So Tom came in-- at that time, every time policemen make an arrest, he'd get an extra $0.50. Gottlieb: Oh.

Joseph M.: And Tom, he came in. This guy had a razor sticking up in his pocket. So Tom said, What you gonna do with the razor up there? This boy said, oh my goodness. This boy was very nice. See, he says, Oh, my goodness. He said, I just shaved. You could see he just shaved 'cause he-- he-- got some bumps, you know, I just shaved, he said I put the razor in my pocket, when I was home. The guy said, come on, I gotta get my breakfast. I forgot to take it out. Tom said, give it to me. He said, I can't. He said the only one I got, he said, I don't have another one. He said, Well I said give it to me. He said, I can't give it to you. He said, I don't have another. And he said, I can't get another for til payday. Said, I ain't got no money. Tom said he's gonna take it. Lemme take that razor. He don't let him. Tom shot him. Didn't kill him, just shot him. They come and got Tom. Took him down to the hospital, that was corner of Ninth Avenue and Hastings [??]. Fella worked with me. I forgot his name. Got them down there, had the guy all in the hospital. He said, if I get out of this hospital, said, there's one man I'm gonna kill. Tom Pulaski. He got out of the hospital, they got him out of Homestead. [laughs] But then another time they had.

Joseph M.: A fellow by the name of Wilson. He was on the police force. And his boy was the head of the Salvation Army there. Paul.

Joseph M.: And he and another fella got in a fight. This fella shot him. Close up. Wasn't back here. And fella-- right through the door-- killed him. He just shot him once in _____[??], and shot him again. Rushed him to the hospital, he died that morning. You know, another tragic [??]. Gottlieb: Yeah. So Homestead was a pretty rough place. Joseph M.: Oh, yes. Yes. Pretty rough at one time. But you don't have any more of that now. Oh, we got a good police force here. I could have street now. So, like, if I could have something done to my car and I tear down the street, I believe it. I come up there to police station. I live up here, you know, and I'm old. I'll usually walk up and down the hill. Hey, wait a minute, fella. I got to go home. I ain't got no car. They bring me home. Gottlieb: Oh, really? Joseph M.: Yes they will, too. Gottlieb: What time was it--

Peter Gottlieb: Let me ask you this. How long was it that there were-- that Homestead was a real rough place and they had all these boarding houses and gambling places down in the ward. When did all that end?

Joseph M.: Well, Homestead was rough from about when the First World War, let's put it that way. What was the 1917 something like that-- Because I signed up down at the board building, you know, to go to the Army, well, 'cause-- let's say from like 16. Let's make it from 16. I say from 16 until about-- 19 and-- Go to the 30s. Pretty rough. Pretty rough. But after that, the cloud blew over. Homestead doin' pretty good [??].

Gottlieb: Um, do you remember when they took down the place that they used to call the ward? When the mill expanded. Joseph M.: [simultaneous talking] The ward? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Yeah.

Joseph M.: They start tearing that down 1935. And so they erected the first mill down there in '36. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Where did the mill used to be before that?

Joseph M.: Well, a lot of that was in the mill. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Well, now, before they tore that out, the ward, we had 120 mills set out on Second Avenue and Dickson Street. That was a plate mill. Then from there on down, then to the Howard Axle Works. And then til '45 wasn't anything. You see? And, uh, you had-- then from there, then they had the Howard Axle Works. And then they had 110 mill and that was all. And then down below that, we had the drop. And so that was all. But then after they tore out here, then they built in all of that down there, that-- that-- that happened in 35 and 36. Gottlieb: I see.

Gottlieb: Where did the people go who used to be living down there when they started tearing?

Joseph M.: [simultaneous talking] Well, they migrated in various parts of the country. You know, some went to the-- some of them went to Homewood, some to East Liberty, some to the Hill District and some to the North Side, one place and another. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And then all that could stay here, stayed. And then some of them here bought their homes, you know, and some build homes and they stayed here.

Gottlieb: Did Black people who worked in the mill, did they-- did most of them live in-- live in Homestead?

Joseph M.: [simultaneous talking] No, no, we had them. Oh, my goodness. We had them to come in here from Homewood, East Liberty, Hill District, Garfield, Northside, Sewickley, Bellevue. Gottlieb: They come from all over. Joseph M.: Main place up here. Right up here, William Penn. Lincoln Harbor here. Gottlieb: [unintelligible] Joseph M.: Jeannette, Jeanette. All up in that section, they was coming in-- yeah. Duquesne, Clairton. Some of them couldn't get in over there, you know, and then the building mill would come over here cutting all those places. The North, Little Washington. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: I mean, Washington and Brownsville. Yeah, they drive there and plenty of them. Some of them coming here up here from down there now.

Gottlieb: Well, let me ask you this, did most of the Black people who lived in Homestead work down there at the mill, or did people who lived here work all over?

Joseph M.: No, the most of the-- most of the Black people lived in Homestead, worked in the mill, most of them. You'd find some would have different jobs at-- some of them work here. I mean, lived in Homestead. Some of them might be working over Kaufman over that. Uh, Boggs and Buhl, you don't happen to know them? Gottlieb: No. Joseph M.: Boggs and Buhl is where Gimbels is now. That was Boggs and Buhl. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And some them, greater horn [??]. And some of them-- more Dickson. And some of them go over North Side, there. I don't mean Boggs and Buhl, but Boggs and Buhl was on the North Side-- where Gimbels is now was Kaufman and Bell. Mhm. Boggs and Buhl was on the North Side. But they did different things. And a lot of them, you know, they wouldn't want to do no hard work anyway. No, you couldn't make them do that. They'd-- they'd go home and take a job as a janitor. You know then, where it wouldn't be hard. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Uh, I wanted to. I was curious to asking you what you thought of the union, when the union came in to the mill.

Joseph M.: Well, the union. You know, you can stop something. Now, the company here in 18 and 94, they had a manslaughter out here at the library here on 10th Avenue in Munhall, oh, a bunch of men, was about 2, 300 men possibly got killed. Gottlieb: Oh yeah? Joseph M.: Yeah, that's because of the union. Gottlieb: Uh huh? So in 19 and 19, they formed another union. In other words, the Federation of Labor. It-- this year, and a bunch of the brothers had joined it. I think it's the National Federation of Labor and. They had-- they were anticipating on having a strike the-- the 10th day of September, I think of 1919 or 22nd of September 1919. So I was working with a bunch of fellas, some of them were foreigners. A lot of them were. So one of the fellas there, was a very nice fella named Mike Newman and him and I was very close and Mike told me, he said, Joe, says we're going out on a strike on the 22nd of September. I said yeah? He said, yeah. He says union. I said Mike, I said, I don't belong to the union. And I says, And I can't go out unless I belong to the union. He said, Well, I'm going to have another meeting.

Joseph M.: He said, I'll take your name in and see if they will accept it. Well, at that time, the fellow by the name of Harry Gompers was the president of the American Federation of Labor. And so he presented my name, they turned it down. So then they turned it down and he came back and told me, he said, Joe, he said they wouldn't accept you. I said, No. He said, no. I said, Well, Mike, I have to work. And he said, Well, I said, you have to work because they won't take you in the union. 22nd of September. They went out. So-- scabs. We eventually broke the strike and I was one of them because at that time they had the state troopers in here, you know, and a bunch of people, you know, and they-- anytime anything would start, you know, they go out down there and they'd beat up a bunch of people, you know. And so finally the mayor, he called us all in and told us if we had a gun to catch, but I'm not telling you to shoot anybody. But if you got a gun put in your pocket. The mayor did.

Gottlieb: He had a meeting and a bunch of people went in there. And he told you that? Joseph M.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gottlieb: Were you there? Joseph M.: Yeah.

Joseph M.: Well, at that time, I had two pistols. I had a Secret Service pistol [??] and a .45 [??]. So sure enough I did, a lot of time go in to work. And when you get down near the mill, you know, you'd find maybe 50 or 75 men, you know, congregated on the corner. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: And they would throw, oh, they use a lot of other things that you wouldn't pay too much attention to that under the conditions. Least, I didn't. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: And it wasn't that I was afraid of anything. But of course, you don't pay attention to some things, you know, in other words. You find a man looking for trouble. You use your better judgment. You wouldn't. You wouldn't have him out. Gottlieb: Right. Joseph M.: Now. So, uh, that passed and they went back in the mill. And some of them, some of them didn't. They got the job back. But we didn't have no more, no more union here then til to 1936, then 1936, John L. Lewis had come on the scene and the-- the-- at least part of them is a foreign element. And they had gone union and then gone, of course about a dollar to join. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: And so at that time I was a janitor and so I had a little office down on the office. And so the fellows would come in and bring me the application. And then going through the mill, you know, doing my work, I could contact a lot of people and I wrote up a bunch of people.

Gottlieb: So you-- so you really helped the union then?

Joseph M.: Yeah, but if the company had known it, they'd have blackballed me 'cause-- let me go back, to when they turned me down in the American Federation there was another colored fella, Mike Goodhall that join it because he had been working in a coal mine. He knew the value of the union. And when they come to find out that he had gone out to join that union, they blackballed him out of the mill. And when he died, he died back there in the coal field. Throw them out of the ground. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: I was signin' them up. And so when-- one day superintendent, superintendent of construction down, fellow by the name of Harold Ramsey. He came in the office and he said to me, he said, Joe, said, what you think about the union. I had a pile of the applications. Right there. I said, Well, Mr. Ramsey, see, you know, the union or anything else, go where people go, and the people cared. I said, There's no point about that. But the people cared. I said, if the people in the Homestead Steelwork want the union. But they bringing it in in the mill. He give me a big feather coat. He got mad at me and he took it back. Harold Ramsey. And so about a week after that it was slashed [??] that Roosevelt. John L. Lewis. And some other.

Gottlieb: Myron Taylor. Joseph M.: Huh? Gottlieb: Myron Taylor. Joseph M.: Might have been.

Joseph M.: They met in New York and Roosevelt had sanctioned the union. So when-- when it blast that Roosevelt had sanctioned the union, something like federally, not that-- and said that the people was privileged to form a union anywhere in the United States, Harold Ramsey had a fit and a bunch of them got uh, they wanted to kill a-- can't think of the man named as the president of the company. Gottlieb: At that time? Joseph M.: Mhm. I know his name, I know it. Well, bless my heart. Anyhow. They want to kill him. They want to kill him. They were thinking about what happened here in 1894. And you know what happened. Can't think of the man's name now to save my life. Gottlieb: Was it Myron Taylor? Joseph M.: No, it wasn't Taylor. Because another fella, he had to get an airplane and come to Pittsburgh here to settle that thing. They wanted to kill him. It wasn't a foreign element of people, you know, to the people that was the top brass, you know, like all the bosses and the superintendent and that gang of people and maybe some of the clerks [??] at that time they wanted to kill him. And so he had to come here and settle that thing. Well, when they settled that thing, then I'd been turned in. The union was here. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: You see what I mean? And I-- I'd been seen that I signed up more people than anybody because I was in a position to contact all the people. You see? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Well, now, some of the people, they-- They wanted to join the union. You see what I mean? But they was reluctant and they were so reluctant 'cause whenever you would sign them up, they had to take the membership card. And I had a lot of membership cards in my pocket where the fellow that joined the union give me that, give me the dollar application and was afraid to take a card and I carried them in my pocket.

Gottlieb: So you were in favor of the union? Joseph M.: Hm? Gottlieb: You were in favor of the union?

Joseph M.: I don't know. I don't know. Well, union have done some good. And the union had done a lot of bad. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: That's right. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: The union has caused more of a spiral of prices and salaries than any other one organization you know of. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And no one knows where it will stop. Now-- I've got pretty good, I guess. But I'm by labor and-- [unintelligible] I seen in the paper where someone saying this shareman make $600,000 a year. You see. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: There is no man on the face of the earth worth that kind of money. See? Hm?

Gottlieb: I guess not.

Joseph M.: Name one. That's real. Nixon sell you [??] $100,000, but that's for-- that's only $100,000. Name one. Name a man that's any more important than the president. Gottlieb: That's right.

Gottlieb: You're right.

Joseph M.: Mhm. I see it. Well, the union has brought about conditions where people can be well paid. There's nothing wrong with that. But I say how to-- how to stop.

Joseph M.: You haven't stopped. You had to pay all the union. You haven't stopped. That's the problem. They haven't stopped. That's all right. It's so many people that don't belong to the union. It is so many people that is practically severed their relation in the sense of the word with the union. Then when this fire is continued to go, go, go. What about those people? Now here we got more people that don't belong to the union that is affected by the union than you have that belong to it.

Gottlieb: That's right. Joseph M.: Then what you gonna do?

Joseph M.: Now. I'll tell you something. As far as Homestead. As far as I'm concerned, I'm in this house here just because I had to buy it, because my wife was in a wheelchair, I didn't want it to start with. Uh. 52 years, I think it maybe. So if I needed $50,000 next week, if I would wire her, she would sent it to me. That's the truth, I'm talking to you, so it don't hurt me, you don't-- I'm not hurting. The only reason I don't have a brand new Cadillac sittin' here is 'cause I don't want it. And I get ready to go anywhere, if I can't fly, Imma stay home. I ain't going anywhere one of them things. Said, I keep my wheels to run around here in. But if I get ready to go someplace, get me a airplane. And if I can't-- if I'm not able to pay it, I'll stay home. Well, I'm not hurting. But while I am not hurting, you've got thousands of others that are hurting. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Well, then what? It don't bother me. Other words, I get a pension and I get Social Security. If they would erase it and I didn't get one penny, it wouldn't hurt me. I'd live. I'd have just as much money to spend. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Now, I'm not trying to top myself now and exalt myself, you know, to make like I'm

Joseph M.: What I'm not. But I'm telling you the truth. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Well, that's me. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: I'm doing more now. It might be more, but if then I don't know about. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: I don't know anybody else could say that. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: You see what I mean? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Oh, no. You got people. You got people. They ain't looking for no handouts. How-- You know the Black people now? Own one level of the-- of the United States wealth. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: You believe it? They own 11% of the United States wealth. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: You got quite a few. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And I think in terms of whites, they got so many that they ain't looking for nothing. They're giving it. You see what I mean? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: But you got so many that even-- ain't in that category. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: You got more-- Oh, my goodness. We got about-- probably about-- Gottlieb: 220 million. Joseph M.: Well, I mean, millions. Uh, out of that 220 million. I'd venture to say. Fifty million would be possibly in the category. Because reasonably. Oh, let me give you about 70 million in the upper bracket. You believe that? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: I don't know what I'm talking about. Because you come for an analysis. I don't know. But that's just my guess. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Well, then what are you gonna do with them? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Well, the union doesn't. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: But even though you have that criticism of the union, back then, in 1936, you were helping them. Joseph M.: Mhm. Gottlieb: In the plant. Joseph M.: Mhm. Gottlieb: So have you changed your mind since then? Joseph M.: Me? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Well.

Joseph M.: Uh, I belong to the union til I _______[??] Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And they would take out the union dues because the company would deduct it. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And since I came out, I got a lifetime membership. But I don't go to it at all. Oh, I haven't been to it. I don't think I've been to a meeting more than about once or twice since I came out of the mill. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: I have a lifetime membership. Metal [??]. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did the Black people who were working in the mill around 1936. Did they want a union in there generally?

Joseph M.: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Gottlieb: So, so a lot of them joined up when you came around.

Joseph M.: Yeah. They joined up but-- see they was afraid to join it. Mhm. And the reason the Black man was afraid to join it, he'd been used as a tool. In other words he'd be used as a-- test, for to test if there's a fire. That is, whenever they would have a strike. They could migrate Back people in here, you know, as scabs and keep the, the, the, the the enterprise going while the others was out on the strike. You see what I mean. But when the strike was over they sent him away. But-- but you got to go further now. You got a lot of Black people want to work regular. You know, you got some-- if you give them little money in his pocket. He's not going to work until it's spent. It's a fellow countryman who borrowed money off of me and he got paid off my last payday. I think. I think he said before the deduction, you know, because they took out union dues and they take out Social Security, so forth and so on. And he said when he get his money, he said he feel rich. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Uh huh. And he said, I went to the saloon. He said, I pulled my head back drinking and he get paid off and get himself 3, $400. And then two, three days he don't have a quarter. Gottlieb: Mhm.

Joseph M.: Yeah. Guy ____[??] these up again. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: You see what I mean? Yeah. Now. Other than the pension that they live and the Social Security. If he quit work, that's all he have to pay them and he won't have one penny laid aside. I knew I was gonna quit if I lived. So what I've done? I bought a bond of pay. I bought a $50 bond of pay. So later, two weeks it would be best at $57, I give my wages to the bond. And I looked at it and just take it into the done that I thought. About $75 a month. I got $100 worth of bond. So I had a little money and I came out from there. But when I had a big family and we don't know yet, but you got a big family and got to feed him, clothe them, put shoes on their feet, you give him a little money to spend, takes a whole lot of money. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Oh, nothin' left. Well, I had a little money and I had a truckload of bonds, came out the mill. So much so when I came out I took a look at the bonds. They give me $1,300 when I came out. And after that they give me $2200. And then I had to go to state compensation and sign up, and that paid me $46 a week. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Joseph M.: And. I think that-- I got $72,000 state compensation. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And, uh. After I got married. I'll leave nothing gettin' married. I stopped being so extravagant, you know. 'Fore that, I used to go all over the country, and I just loved to ride the train. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Yes, indeed. And I'd go everywhere. I went from here to California. Cost me $1,135 [??]. That was 1915 [??].

Gottlieb: Really?

Joseph M.: Cost me $1,135. Along at that time had a racket going for me see, and I had some money. Soldiers were going to the Army in 1917. While this was going, I think 1916, somewhere along in there, and they were buying stocks and bonds in the mill. And if you was working in the mill and if you had to go to the Army, if you had-- if you buy a bond, let's say, maybe $100 bond and you done pay maybe $70 on it, when you jacked up to go to the Army, they would take out that other $30 and give you the rest of your-- your pay plus the bond. And so a lot of the folks, you know, they said, hell, I don't want this damn bond, say, I'm going to fight. Said, if I put it in the bank ready to sold I don't know where I'll be when it's sold, I-- ____[??] to come up. I -- you know, I take $2 a bond [??] for it, I go back, I come back with 7, 800, maybe a thousand dollars rest of the life. Gottlieb: So you would buy that discount? Joseph M.: Yes, I'd put-- I'd keep it. And I watched the paper here, you know, pay the bond, maybe, I bought $20, maybe $75 bond. And then I took a bunch of them right on down to the bank, put them on the market. About a week or ten days, Mr. Ralph would send a card to come down. I'd go down, sometime he'd have a check for me.