M., Joseph, November 16, 1973, tape 3, side 1

Joseph M.: So then she told him who I was and shook my hand, you know. He said to me, he said, now this girl here, he said, was one of the best girls in this town. He said to me, he said, he said, Don't you leave here. He said, You go to see my mother. Said, I'm going to tell Mom tonight. So he went home that night and told his mother, and she came over the next day and she was very wealthy. She came over the next day and she told my wife, Rose, she said, now you've got to go to our house this evening for supper. So we went over to the house that evening for supper. I pulled up to the front and I went on up on the porch and the cook, I guess, the cook was-- he had on a white apron. She met us at the door and we went in and we had supper. And this woman I tell you about, woman by the name of Mrs. Lackey, 'bout then she had another lady there by the name of Miss Nehemiah [ph]. I don't know nothing about down there. I never got there twice in my life. But this other lady was named Miss Nehemiah and Miss Nehemiah was there. And so then they had to go to Miss Nehemiah for supper. And so that was it. And as true as I'm talking to you, the people down there idolized the woman I married. That's as true as I'm talking to. And her mother, too, because everywhere her mother went, she carried this girl with her. If she was going to work for you and if you didn't have room for two, she wouldn't work for you. Wherever she went. Gottlieb: Oh. Joseph M.: 'Cause-- She couldn't keep up with her husband. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: You weren't worth $0.10.

Peter Gottlieb: When you came back after getting married in North Carolina. Joseph M.: Mhm. Mhm. Gottlieb: Uh, where where did you start living then? You didn't go back to the boarding house? Joseph M.: No, no.

Joseph M.: No, no, no. I rented a place up here on Silver [??] Street, and I stayed up there. Oh, I stayed up there for about six months, and she-- a fella's wife had died, and I had rented the house. And the man that owned the house, he would rent off of me, you see. So there's some of fellas that worked with me here, and they went and got married, and then they came back. They had got rooms off of me before they left. And so when they got married, they brought their wives back. And so one fellow named Clark and I forgot the other one's name, they rented off of me and I stayed there. So when the fella that owned the house wanted to get married again, he had lost his wife and he wanted to get married again. And he didn't have any room. And since I was the oldest one there and knew more people here in Homestead than the fella that lived with me, I let them stay there while they were-- I let them stay put and I got another place and I moved in right over here on 12th Avenue. And I stayed there then until I got another place. Gottlieb: I see.

Gottlieb: Where did you, uh-- When did you buy your first home in Homestead?

Joseph M.: Oh, I didn't buy. I didn't want to buy it here, period. I bought. I bought this place. This is the first one. The reason I bought this, my wife had a stroke in 1946, and so she could-- She could walk like this. She could break [??] one leg, see. And so, uh, I was renting here, so I had a car to do a job. And so I finally get another one. So I got a four door job to keep her from having-- And I take people here. And so then and, uh, that was 19, in 46. So in 19-- 19-- I can't think. She had another stroke, that put her in a wheelchair. Had to go and buy a wheelchair. I got a wheelchair. Was still here. But how many-- people figured I had a few quarters. They got her to sell this place. The people I was renting it from, Johnson McClure. I was down there and they told me, said M., Are you afraid you're going to be sold? I said, I don't know. Said, why don't you buy it? I said, I don't want it. You couldn't give it to me.

Joseph M.: He said, Well, he says, this McClure talkin. Says, now you've got a lot of room there, say, you're there and your wife had a stroke. Of course you're allowed to move and get a place for the reasonable, but you got to do a lot of work on it. The handyman said, Well, the reason I bought the place, my wife was in a wheelchair. She could wheel herself through all through the house, all like that, front and follow all the way back here, out in the hall. And she'd have to wheel herself out the door and if she want to go to the bathroom, she could wheel herself right there in the bathroom. Well, now, unless I stay there for that convenience, if I go someplace where the bathroom is on the second floor, every time she get ready to go to the bathroom, she have to be waited on. You see what I mean? So they had me over the barrel and I had-- I had no choice. I had to-- I had to buy it. And so I bought it in 19-- 19 and 60. Whoo, I think '63, something like that, I bought it.

Gottlieb: But up until that time, you had always rented the places you lived?

Joseph M.: I rented-- I lived here for-- I moved here in 1953, I think, or '54, something like that. No, I didn't buy them-- in 1963, I think it was. I lived there for 9 or 10 years before I bought it, but I bought it because of my wife's condition and I bought it in '63, I think it was. And she died in '66. And so I was renting down here and had a number of people up there during the time I was down there. And they left after I bought it. That was the dirtiest place you ever seen. I don't care what you have seen. I don't care where you seen it. I got two loads of stuff from upstairs. Two truck loads. So now I use, using this and it become impaired and you can have it fixed. Why you want keep it? You gonna keep it? But they would. If a chair would break down, they take it up and put up in the attic. Wouldn't just set over on the side. And where the stove sat, when they moved the stove the grease under there were thick. Let it run out on the floor and all that kind of a thing. My goodness. Oh, my God. Oh, if you take a peep up the step now, you'd see the difference. But it cost so much. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Mhm. The first thing I'd done when I got it, I had to have the siding put on, and a roof. That cost about five thousand dollars. Then I had to have a coal stove.

Joseph M.: The coal furnace taken out and put in gas furnace. I put in two. I put in one for downstairs and then put the-- Just one more thing to another and still don't have nothing. And that's what I-- had to have the bathroom put in, tore the bathroom out and put in another bathroom. That cost me $1,365. It sure did. Right here. Rentin a place, rentin' a place, didn't have to order, had them replace. So just-- one thing to another. Just-- every time, I've had a wall front fixed out there. In the front. The wall on the front, I'd had a sidewalk put here and the tile I had to have. In fact, we picked the tile out. And so just one thing to another. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: I still don't have anything. I now have-- And now I have $20,000 tied up in this place right now. Still don't have anything. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: But, see, I was over the barrel, and I didn't buy it for myself. I bought it for convenience for my wife because I didn't know she was gonna die. And so she was in a wheelchair and she wasn't going to get out it. I had to go in and even buy the wheelchair. I tried to rent one. I couldn't rent one. I went to various agencies to rent one. I went to the Warners Club and I went to this one and I couldn't get one so I had to buy.

Gottlieb: I want to ask you a different question altogether now. When, uh, when you were-- when you first came down here to live in 1914 and you were-- you were living over in the boarding house and, uh, and after you started working down here at the mill, what kind of things would you do in your spare time? Just-- Just for fun.

Joseph M.: For fun? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: I'd fight. I'd box. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: We had a gym down on Sixth, see, and we'd go down and put the gloves on and spar, you know, and then we'd work out down there. And then sometimes we would start down on Eighth and McClure and we'd run all the way up McClure Street to 22nd. I mean 21st, out 20, I mean to 20-- out 20 down to 22nd and down past old Garfield, 20, coming down the west run, went on back up Eighth Avenue and we'd start out in little dog trot and then we'd take on momentum, you know, momentum. And we come back. We'll be running fast as we could and there'd be water sloughing out your shoes.

Gottlieb: Uh, were there places in Homestead in those years where Black people like to gather? Uh, just like the pool rooms down in Pittsburgh? Were there certain places like that?

Joseph M.: Oh, yes. We had pool rooms here. We had, uh, there was Jess Jones and there was Roy Thornton's. We had various pool rooms here, and then we had a number of clubs around that, had various clubs where the guys would go. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And the Homestead Grays, you know, they was here and they would have their office or their headquarters at one place and the gang would always loaf around there. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Back there. I've known fact all of the Grays players from time they started until they disbanded. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: __________[??] always said that the day that they allowed Negroes in break into the big leagues that the Negro baseball, you know, will be doomed. And he was right. Gottlieb: Yeah. Mhm. Joseph M.: Uh huh, yeah.

Gottlieb: Well-- When did you-- when did you join the church? After you had moved out here. How long was it?

Joseph M.: Oh, see I joined Clark Memorial in 19-- same year I came out here. 1916. Yeah.

Gottlieb: 'Bout the time you came here. Did, uh, when they were bringing a lot of Black people up on transportation and during those years, did a lot of those people go to church when they came here?

Joseph M.: No, no, no.

Joseph M.: No, no. You'd find-- always a select, you know, you find some that would go, but not, not-- not that influx of people. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Just-- just some. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Did-- Did you always go to Clark Memorial? Did you ever go to other churches when you were living here? Joseph M.: I do what? Gottlieb: Did you always go to Clark Memorial Baptist Church or-- or did you-- did you go to various different churches?

Joseph M.: Well, I joined Clark Memorial, but the church as a whole would go to various churches. Now I've gone to practically all the churches in, that depend. See, now if you are active in church work, which I was, I was very active, uh, and uh, I taught in Sunday school and I taught in the BYPU and I was secretary of the trustee board and I sang on the choir and I was chairman of the Finance Committee. And I was just in that, a lot of times I would be deputized, you know, to-- they would send me to various places. You know, I used to go to other places, you know, as delegates. And some of the work I had, it necessitated me of going from one church to the other practically all the time in the evening. You know, I could be at my church in the morning, but most of the time in the evening I'd be at some other church, you know, because I had a lot of gab. And so they'd always want me to be there to say something, you know, to own my topic or something. All that kind of a thing. And so I would always accept it because I like the work at the time, you see. But since that time I have changed quite a bit because now I think the younger people should do it because usually, you know, it's just like a fruit. Fruit, you know, you have to eat while it's green. As soon as it gets ripe, it's ready to fall off the tree. Well, that's life. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: You see, when person lived their life to that end, when they get ripe and when they get to the place where they in a position to help the other fellow from that experience. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: They ready for that hole [??]. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Uh, can you tell me anything about the, uh, little storefront churches that-- that used to be in Homestead? Uh, Spiritualist and Holiness churches. Were there a lot of those here?

Joseph M.: Well, no. We had one Holiness church here. I didn't know anything much about that. Uh, but it had-- It had a wonderful reputation, you know? Yeah. Because the people-- fella named Reverend Barber and his-- had it down there in the ward somehow. But there was a lot there. I mean, both white and colored. And so you take Homestead now, the churches are practically integrated. It's-- it's so much different now because sometimes we have services over-- over our church. We have some white preacher to come down and preach and he bring his choir, you know, and his congregation and he preach in our church. And then sometime we'd go to that church and we sing and our preacher preach, you know, and get a big crowd and just one church to the other. And I think all of the preachers here, they belong to what is known as the association, to the association or something like that. And all of the preachers, that's where the-- I guess the Confederate, you know. And so you take-- so much different now. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Of course when I first came to Homestead, the preacher we had, unless he was a Baptist preacher, he couldn't go in the pulpit, wouldn't let him. But you see that-- that just that comes from illiteracy. That's it. Now, he believed that and he believed it. Yes, he did. You got people here now that the same way. They believe that the Baptist is right.

Joseph M.: The woman lives next door now. She'll tell you now, unless you do certain things, you go to hell when you die. You see what I mean? Well, I don't know whether hell is a lake of fire like they depict it to me or whether it's a tub of water. It would make no difference to me. The thing I am to God against if it-- in other words, if hell is a place of torment and suffering, my job is try to stay out of it and stay away from it. Is that right? Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Well, if I stay away from it, it wouldn't matter to me whether it's a lake of fire or a tub of water, would it? Well, that's it. You can't tell her that. Now, I believe that hell and heaven are conditions. I believe when you happy, it's heaven. I believe when you miserable it's hell. And I don't believe it's-- I don't believe it's. It's a lake of fire. And I don't believe you fly around up here when you die. I believe hell and heaven are conditions. And you take some people, you can't tell that because they tell you, say, man you're crazy unless you do so until when you die, you go to hell and burn in a lake of fire. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And they believe that. And you can't change them. Then what? Then what-- you just have to along with it? Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Uh huh.

Joseph M.: Well, you know, somebody said as you think, as you, as a man thinks, that's him. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: That's it. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: And so he think you're wrong. You're wrong. Think you're right. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: No problem.

Gottlieb: Uh, did you join any clubs or organizations when you-- When you moved out to Homestead? Joseph M.: Yeah.

Joseph M.: I joined Odd Fellows. I joined the Knights of Pythian. I joined the Masons, and I joined the various club. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Uh, did they, uh-- Did you have to go to them to join, or did they come to you and ask you to join?

Joseph M.: Uh, only one of the organizations that I had to go to them. That was the Masons. You know, the Masons is not supposed to ask you to join. You supposed to ask them. But the others, you can. They'll come to you and say, Why don't you come and join so-and-so? Why don't you join so-and-so? But Mason. Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Did a lot of the men-- did a lot of the Black men who were working down at the mill belong to these organizations?

Joseph M.: Quite a few. But we had them in our lodge. We had them from Duquesne, Homewood, East Liberty, Braddock, various places.

Gottlieb: Would they meet here in Homestead? Joseph M.: Yeah. Yeah. Gottlieb: So these people who lived in different places would have to come here.

Joseph M.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. At that time, we would meet down here at the barn [??], the hall down on ________[??] street. And, uh, now that is another one. She and uh-- I'll tell you that the Knights of Pythian. In the Knights of Pythian, I would to keep a record and see you and I could write pretty rapidly. I can't do it now because I can't write with this eye [??]. Uh, I keep a record and say here. And I had that job for years. And then in the Odd Fellows I was Noble Grand. I was the presiding officer and I had that job for seven years. And then in the Masons, I was appointed when the lodge was set up and I had that job for seven years. I was Whisper [??] Master. And so every time we would go to this place, or that place, they would always call on me to say something, you see. And so, oh my goodness. More than I can tell you. It was all right. I liked it at the time. I had a line of gab and they'd always ask for it. Gottlieb: Mhm. Joseph M.: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Why-- Why would a, uh, why would a Black man who had come to Homestead in those years join an organization like the ones you belonged to?

Joseph M.: Why would they join?

Gottlieb: Yeah, they would-- Were they looking for something in particular?

Moorfield: I don't know. I can't answer that one. I don't think necessarily so. I think, you know, a lot of times we join things for self-aggrandizement. That is, if I can boost my stock, you see. And I want to be in a position where I get a hearing, you know, I want to be a big shot, big man. But equally or not, I want it. And so I think that is the purpose of some of it.

Gottlieb: Did you get prestige by belonging to these--?

Joseph M.: [simultaneous talking] A lot of times, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Because I've been to places for now and people would come up and say, Hi M., and I wouldn't know them from the sugar, but they knew me. And the reason they knew me, I was always up and running off at the mouth. And then they come to the church and they walk in the door. They look upon the choir and they see me up on the on the choir stand. Well, up on the choir stand, I see everybody. And yet I don't see anybody. You see, because if I have a piece of music up here and singing this music, it doesn't matter who's out there, my job is sing the song. Not a lot of-- He's a hobo, or he'd be a king. I ain't got them on my mind. I'm singing, you see? Well, that is the difference. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: And so whenever somebody is in a prominent place where they viewable, you know, you may recognize them, but you-- you wouldn't recognize them. I mean, they may recognize you, but you wouldn't recognize them because people come by our church now they recognize ones on the choir, but the ones on the choir wouldn't recognize people-- many people that they're looking at out there in the audience. And so that's the difference. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: When they started bringing a lot of men in here on transportation, where-- where were most of the people who were coming to Homestead, most of the Black people who were coming to Homestead, what part of the South were they from? Was it your impression?

Joseph M.: Well, they was from various parts of the South, we had some comin' here from Alabama. Some from Georgia, some from South Carolina, some from North Carolina and some from Virginia. They had some from West Virginia, had some from Kentucky. And a bunch of white people came here from Owington, Kentucky, and I'll jump away a minute-- and this man, this fellow's name is Sam Bertram. And him and I lived together. Uh huh. He go in and get his supper and he come up to my house, you know, and-- And him and I'd go down in the park nearly every evening, you know, and he just. Well, we just followed one another. And he was the man that you want to meet. Right. Oh, my goodness. He's a bull and he's a bootlegger. He told me about-- he told me he'd been in every jail in the United States. Gottlieb: Mhm. Joseph M.: Uh huh. But I just said that in West Virginia. In Kentucky. And then we had some from Tennessee. Other words, we had people to come from various states, you know.

Gottlieb: Do you do you have any idea where-- where most of the Black people were from? Were they from any one part of the South? Like there was-- like there would be more people from one part of the South and from the other?

Joseph M.: No, I wouldn't know that. I imagine-- from what I can recall, I think you'd find more people here from Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina than any other states.

Gottlieb: Was there any particular reason for that?

Joseph M.: Well, yes, one of the reasons were the people. Mark you, South Carolina had some nice schools, but the people down there used past tense of speech. You know, they say. They'll say. And some of them have pretty good education. They say, you know,say, I never ain't done so and so. You see what I mean? And they have that they call it a Geechee language. And you can usually tell, you know, by that. And then you got some comin' up from South Carolina. If you go by the language, you would never know where they came from. No, they talk just kind about us. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Well, I can't think of any other questions that I'd like to ask you, but if you could remember any other-- Oh, here. Here's a question I wanted to ask you. As you remember those years when you first came to Homestead, was there any one particular Black man who was-- who was the most prominent in Homestead? The most famous leader?

Joseph M.: [simultaneous talking] Yes. Yes. When I came to Homestead, had three men that owned Homestead. One of them was a colored man. Gottlieb: Oh, yeah. Joseph M.: This guy Posey. Was Colin Posey's father that used to be the owner of the Homestead Grays. Gottlieb: Oh. Joseph M.: His father owned a row of houses on McClure Street. He owned a row of houses on Grant Street. He owned every house on 13th Avenue from Ann Street to Mifflin. He had boats running up and down the river, and he was a river pirate. He used to bring coal in from the coal mines, and the company would order maybe two barges or three barges of coal. He would come and cut it loose, three barges of coal, he'd steal one. And then at night he'd go back and steal one day, the boys and take it down to J and L. Until they caught him doing that. They gave him time for it. Gottlieb: Oh, really? Joseph M.: Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: But he was a pretty wealthy man?

Joseph M.: Him and him and WSB Hayes was. Hayes was very wealthy. And, uh, I know his name. Evie Wickerham. They owned practically all the Homestead. Practically all of it.

Gottlieb: Now, they were all Black men?

Joseph M.: No, no, no. The only one Black. No, the one I told you about, he was a river pirate.

Gottlieb: His name was Posey.

Joseph M.: Posey. Yeah. Mhm. And.

Joseph M.: Well, we had quite a few people here that were pretty good shape when I came here and that were the Poseys. That were the Bells. That were the Blakes. That was the Williams, That was the-- somebody else. Who was it? I can't think now, but they were very wealthy.

Gottlieb: Do you remember a family by the name of Good?

Joseph M.: Well, I told you about them the other day. They didn't have-- They had a bunch of kids, but they all were very equipped. That is, intellectually, they were smart. I mean, the whole family. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And, uh, that's what I was telling you the other day about our schools. I told you about it, and I tell you about our schools and about how the kids graduate here, and, uh, never could get anything to do. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Well, I had, uh, uh, all of my kids don't have college training. This boy here, he-- He just went to the Common. He-- Common, on the sport, the big one. And this little one here. He just graduated from Homestead high school. He didn't want to go to college. He wanted to get out and make money. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And the reason he wanted to make money, he said, because I had a big family and, uh, I didn't have any help at home, you know, financially. And he wanted to get a job to help me. You see, this little one that passed. Not the tall one. That's my grandson. The one came here and went on in the kitchen, didn't say nothing. That's my grandson. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: But the other two is my boys. They live up there. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: They've been married, you know. And they left their wives and they came back home. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And so the Goods up here, they're very smart. But you had some. Now, Mel, Mel is smart. Mel had finished it, and then he took two years of law. He was very smart. And then he got another brother name Bill. He had a drugstore on the corner of Franktown and Brushton.