M., Joseph, November 16, 1973, tape 2, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: Joseph M. of 112 West 12th Avenue, Homestead, Pennsylvania. Recorded on November 12th, 1973 at Mr. M.'s home. [long pause]

Joseph M.: Well, after a number of years, [clears throat] a place of recreation for the Black people here. And the US Steel set up what is known as a community center. And in Homestead, we had Grover, we had Nelson. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: And then Braddock, we had Earl Johnson. Gottlieb: I see. Joseph M.: And then Duquesne, we had Marshall, and then Clairton, we had Bache.

Gottlieb: These were the names of men.

Joseph M.: That was head of the community center. And so Nelson was here. Nelson to me, he was a fine fella, to me. He would do most anything for me. I used to go up to his house practically every day. I knew his family, but he was one of these common men that had a-- was head of his community center. And he wanted to make you or make the other fella believe that no one can do this but me. If I die, it won't be anymore. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M .: You've seen people like that. I called that people that seek self-aggrandizement. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: That's what I call it. I don't know proper name. And he made a few friends, but he made more enemies than he did friends. Uh. Ever since-- I'm reflectin' on it. What I'm saying, you know about it. Ever since they unloaded the Black man down at Jamestown, Virginia. You know the story. He has been a slave or what you might call a subservient. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And even now, I think now, the contribution that the Negro has made to this country. I still think he's shortchanged. I think when it comes down to his privileges and what he is rightfully entitled to, I think there's foot dragging. Gottlieb: Sure. Joseph M.: You think so? Gottlieb: Yes, absolutely. Joseph M.: I think I'm right. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: And no reflection, I would, nothing now, because I try to see things from both sides, and when the steelworks was bringing the people in, this-- this influx of people and the Negro people, they had to prepare some kind of a form of recreation in order to keep them here because they wanted-- they needed the labor. You see what I mean? Gottlieb: Yes. Joseph M.: So the results of that, they set up these community centers and when they set them up--

Joseph M.: They had to pick here, there and everywhere, you know, to get someone that they figured that could-- could take care of it with their help. And so that's how he got that job. And then after he got that job, a lot of the fellas that came here on transportation and one thing or another, they couldn't write their names. And so you see a person like that needs a lot of help. And so that was the purpose of the compliment because I have to jump away from that a minute. Uh. I can make-- I can make-- build this table. Okay. I said while ago, my educational advantages had been very limited. It's a good table. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: You went to school and you took carpentry. You can build a table. I was a man that never had any education at all. And this table is just as good as this fellow. Like me. But where I can build a table, maybe just as good as you, what I use in this table, you might be able to build two tables. You see what I mean? And I'm saying that to say, when the time comes that a man can pick up in the street, what they teach you in these universities will equal you that going to school and took it out. You know what I mean? As a profession, when the time come that I can do a thing as well as you can and use it-- A graduate of this thing, then our educational institution would become a failure. Gottlieb: That's right. Joseph M.: Now, fool yourself. It won't. It won't. It can't. It can't. I gotta go a bit further.

Gottlieb: You just tell it. Tell it your way. That's what I want to hear.

Joseph M.: When I was a boy, we had ox cart-- horses and buggies. That's our only way of transportation. Horses are trained in both. 'Cause oxen too slow. So Henry Ford give us automobile. Thought about this automobile. People said, no, I wouldn't ride in that thing. Look, that thing going down the street without horses on to it. No, I'd be too scared of it. Gottlieb: Huh. Joseph M.: But in time, everybody was riding automobiles. Then mobiles got too slow. It's still transportation. It's too slow. What about the airplane? I went from here to Europe, and now only two stops. Fly just two-- Only two stops. ________[??] airport. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Uh huh. Joseph M.: And, uh, we stopped in Frankfurt, and next stop was Munich, next stop we already in Vienna. Automobile couldn't do that, huh? I was in a 747. That's too slow. Too slow. Say you go about a thousand miles an hour. That's what I've heard. But I don't know whether it's true or not. But it's too slow. Okay, now, what was our next phases of transportation? Do you remember? Gottlieb: After the airplane? Joseph M.: I miss her [??]. Right to the moon. Airplane couldn't do it. I'm saying that to back up education, that's all. You see, when the time comes that I can do a thing as good as that, take the teacher down there that is send that missile to the moon. Something will happen, but it won't. You can't do it. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: You can't compete. So that was the Black man's trouble. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: He-- He didn't have the education. Gottlieb: Right. Joseph M.: Now, a lot of them had, I guess I could say a lot of them had the fortitude, but that's all they did have. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Well, fortitude, with nothing backing up, you know, don't mean very much. And so as a result of that, uh, they put up these community centers and folks start to go in there, and it served its purpose.

Gottlieb: What kind of things would they do there?

Joseph M.: Well, they had different games and different gymnastics, like checkers and pool and baseball and football and track team and so forth. And, uh, we had a couple there who was-- There was cross country champion. Roy Johnson was one. Gottlieb: Oh. Joseph M.: And so you can see, it served its purpose and you take a lot of the fellas. It helped them not only just there, but it helped them through life because we turned a number of fellas that done made good in the boxing world. I used to box. I used to fight. And I guess I would have made good too. I still would have been about 175, something around there. I'd've make good. But. Got running around with the girls. That-- impeded my progress. [laughs]

Gottlieb: What year did you say that this center was set up? Do you remember? Joseph M.: Do I what? Gottlieb: What year that the center was set up that Reverend Nelson was the head of?

Joseph M.: Uh, must been about 19-- I can't just recall the exact year. Must have been about 1915 or 16, somewhere right along in there. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Were there any sort of educational classes? Joseph M.: What-- Gottlieb: Were there any kind of educational courses that were given for the Black men who were coming up to work in the mills?

Joseph M.: Well, what they had down there, they had a reading room, you know, and used to go in there. And there was one that could read a little bit, you know, they would read and they'd come across some word that they wouldn't understand. And you could tell them. And I think it served some purpose, you know, educationally. And then a lot of the fellas, I think they became somewhat interested and some of them did go to school after that. See, I think they got that by virtue of going to the center. I think that was-- I think it served its purpose educationally. And now-- where was I?

Gottlieb: We were talking about Reverend Nelson and the things he was doing.

Joseph M.: [simultaneous talking] Oh, oh, oh. And Nelson was a fella, you know. I told you, he's a fella that-- Oh, I like him, and I work together. He was a fella that wanted you to believe that he the only one that could do the job. So during the Depression, I worked down there with him, and-- while the mill was down. All of the placements were down, work 1 or 2 days a week, and I had a big family. And so what they were trying to do, they was trying to place me where I could get work to do everyday. And so I worked in the sanitary department for a good while. And so. Nelson-- people would come to set, you know, like we have it now here to see, uh, what you call it, uh, welfare. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Welfare. Gottlieb: Uh huh. And so they would come for that, you know, and sometimes it'd be a long string, long as these men to the corner and to be more than he could handle. And so what I would do, I would go up and I would take the application, your name, so and so and so and so and so and so and so and so. Address, so and so and so and so and so and so. And I lay this over and then get the next man, see? And so after I would take the application, he would be typing, see, I'd push him over and he would type them.

Joseph M.: And so sometimes there'd be 2 or 3 piles of them there. Whether he couldn't type, you know, he couldn't keep up. And when the-- when-- when he-- God-- No. That's right there, work in the mill. Look, I didn't get anything this morning. Good for me. So as I went to say, I would take the application, and when we take all we could have for the day, see, I tell them, said, Well, that's all for today. Have to come back tomorrow. So they leave and go home. And so I couldn't type like-- I couldn't type like Nelson, you know, but I'd get there, you know, I was a two finger typer and so I'd be there, you know, and I'd have it. I could type it, right, but I'd just slow, I'd taken, I'd take, take his car and take it up to the employment office. See Mr. Benner. And so, the work got so heavy until he told Mr. Benner, Mr. Benner, said of it, he said, I just can't keep up down now. The work is too heavy. So Mr. Benner went out to the library and got a fellow by the name of Mr. Hughes and sent him down typin', just to type.

Joseph M.: And so I had to take the report down. So I took it. I take his car and pick it up. So I said, Hi, Mr. Benner. he say, Yeah. I said, Nelson and I been working on all this together. Take all the applications and he'd been doing the typing thing after. Take what we can handle for the day. I said, we'd send them back. I said I'd help him type 'em. I said, why don't you give me that job. He said to me, he said M., he said, I don't know a man livin' I'd rather have you. He said, 'cause you got a big family. He said, But Grover never said one word to me about it, and Nelson and I was like this. And Mr. Hughes went down there from the library and he burnt up. He was-- he didn't want down there, see. And so after that I told Nelson, but he said, well he says, I didn't tell him who to send. He said, but I just told him that we had-- the work was heavy, too heavy for us down there. Well, I didn't get the job because I couldn't type like my kid, now you take all my kids, they took it. But I didn't. Gottlieb: Right. Joseph M.: I was two-finger typer. Gottlieb: How did--

Gottlieb: How did the company choose Nelson for this position? Joseph M.: I don't know.

Joseph M.: I couldn't answer that. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Evidently, though, it must have been from his intellectual ability. Must have been, because I can't see nothing else.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Was he a leader of Black people in this area?

Joseph M.: No, no, no. After he got this job, went the other way. What I think, I don't know what I'm talking about. I think he became somewhat inflated and he figures out now I can get-- And so he finally started preaching. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. Joseph M.: Yeah. And so when he start to preachin', the people detested it. And the other preachers, you know, that they put arms around and you know, they was working for him too and they eventually got him a church. Gottlieb: Oh.

Gottlieb: I heard that he-- his church was Victory Baptist Church.

Joseph M.: It was but you see he got-- he was-- he preached over here at Rankin before that. And then he had another church he had up here, to Grove City. And I worked with him. I like him, him and I was all right. So he was going up there until he wanted me to go up with him. He was having some kind of a special day up there, and I went up with him and he had me to go up to sing. So I sang a couple of songs up there for him. But he's-- that was about the biggest church he ever had. The Victory. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: He lived on Chaucer Street here in East Liberty. Gottlieb: Oh.

Gottlieb: So. So he didn't live down here in Homestead while he was-- Joseph M.: No, no.

Joseph M.: No, no, no. He lived on Chaucer Street right off of Lake Avenue. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Live right there next to that bakery and the laundry across the street. I used to go to him over there like I do all this time. Street right before Kikos. Went for it [??].

Gottlieb: Another person I've talked to told me that Nelson would be the one who-- the people who were coming up to Homestead to work here from the South. Joseph M.: Uh huh. Gottlieb: He'd be the person that they would see first in terms of making out their application to work, and Nelson would help them find a place to live and all that kind of thing.

Joseph M.: Well, what happened a lot of times when the company was going to bring a transportation in, they would send Nelson to bring in the transportation. Gottlieb: They would send

Gottlieb: him to the South?

Joseph M.: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, they would send him. I don't think he could go any further South than Richmond. And that was my home. But I'm not sure about that. But I know most of the fellas that came up here would tell me that I would talk to, and they found out it was my home. They would tell me that they'd had to get to Richmond the best way they could, and they got that, they could get a-- sign up for transportation. Gottlieb: I see. Joseph M.: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: So-- So Richmond was the major city in the South for bringing men up to the mill?

Joseph M.: That's right. From what-- From what they would tell me. See, I always said Richmond was my home. See, because as I told you, uh, first time I ever seen daylight was 1214 North First Street. That was between Healy and Coot Street. Right before you get the First Street Viaduct. That was-- in there. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. But-- But you don't think most of the, uh, most of the Black men in, uh, Homestead, uh, had much liking for Nelson?

Joseph M.: Definitely not. They didn't? Joseph M.: Definitely. Definitely.

Gottlieb: Was it-- Did it have-- But did it have anything to do with the way he treated them? Was he condescending or--

Joseph M.: Well, I'll tell you what he'd done. He was a light skinned fellow and sorta like the company, he hire men. He'd be up there with Paul and Nash, you know. And they'd be hirin' and picking up the cables and. Now Paul was a white brother. He would hire me before Nelson would. Nelson would tell me to stand aside and hire you. Gottlieb: Why was that? Joseph M.: I don't know why, but that's what he did. You take Paul or Nash. They would hire me and Nelson tell me, you stand aside. And he'd go you. And he'd sign you up. And he done it so much until the Black people see this and they got to the place where they just detested him. I stopped-- I stopped him from getting a couple of beatings. Gottlieb: Really? Joseph M.: Me? I sure did.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me about those incidents? Joseph M.: Mm? Gottlieb: Can you tell me about those times?

Joseph M.: He and another fella. Used to be by the name of Jim Barber, they was very close. Grew up together, known for years. Jim's sister got married in the Depression right around that time.

Joseph M.: She had been over and made application for health welfare and when he went over as a caseworker, I can say that because I used to help him out. Sometimes he'd be on one side of the street now and, you know, like I'd come in and say your name and address, you know, and how many kids you got? Are you married and how many school age and so forth. A caseworker. And so he went over to Jim's sister, and when he got there, she had a nice place, a nice place, proper. And so when he came out, he said to me, he says, she don't need no help there, look at her house. But she was in there, you know. But she wasn't paid. Gottlieb: Right. Joseph M.: I didn't know any better. I didn't know-- I was blind. I said yes, it looked very nice. So he wouldn't give her no help and they was really up against it. So this fella that he had been living with all along, Jim Barber, came by one day and said to me, he says, I'm no fool. Says, Grover there. I said, Yes. He just up -- in his office. Says, can I see him? I said, Yeah, go ahead up. 'Cause I knew him and Grover like this. Said he went up top, head of the steps and I was listening and he said, he go, Well, hi, Jim Barber. Hi, Grover. Okay. He said Grover. So he stood there now. Hi, Jim. He stood there, he didn't say nothing. Nelson, he was talking. Yap, yap, yap. He didn't say anything. So finally, he said, ____ [??] He said, why are you so-- Wouldn't want that in there, see. Gottlieb: That's okay.

Gottlieb: There's no one going to hear this up 'cept you and me anyway. Joseph M.: Say what?Gottlieb: Said, there's no one going to hear this except you and me anyway.

Joseph M.: Nobody else will hear it?

Gottlieb: No, I'm going to use it for my own purposes, but I wouldn't write that--

Joseph M.: [simultaneous talking] Oh. Okay, then can I tell it like it was? Gottlieb: Exactly. That's what I want. Joseph M.: He said to Grover. He said, Grover. And me [??] Grover's like that. He said, why is you so goddamn dirty? He's a preacher then, you know. He said, what you mean? He said, What I mean is you's a dirty son of a bitch. He said, I'll pull your tongue out. And he was. And Nelson had a piece of the bloody end of a cue-stick, you know, and he had something like a mace. And he grabbed this cue stick and told him, he said, I'm busy. He said, I ain't gonna take that kind of abuse. And Jim jumped him and I heard them. And when I heard them raise their voice, I ran up the steps and I stopped it. And I took him and carried him on out. And I told him, I said, Jim-- Jim'd fight anybody-- I said, this man is on the company's premises and they're paying him for what he do, and now you were wrong. I said, if you're going to attack him, wait until he is off of duty and out in the street. That's now on the premises and he is doing his job. And you come here and jump him, I said, you're going to get the worst of it. So I wouldn't let him go back upstairs. So after that, Nelson jumped me, said to me, said, Joe, said whenever anyone come to see me, he says, Don't you ever let him come up to the office until you consult me. I said, If that's what you want, that's what it'll be. I said, So he work over to community center. So that pass. So another fella was down there one day and he jumped in front of Bill Watkins and Bill Watkins had him and had him down and had him and I pulled him off him and didn't send Bill up that time. I don't know. He just went up himself on his own initiative. But he had him down and I went there and pulled him off. And so the people just-- they just-- they just hated him.

Gottlieb: Was it because he had some kind of position with the company that they didn't like him?

Joseph M.: It was that too. He was head of the community center down there and that's where the guys all would loaf, you know, because they'd go down and play checkers and play pool and play this thing. And some had the reading room. And then they box, you know, had something like a gym that had punching bags, and then they had the gloves and put them on with anybody you want. Gottlieb: Yeah. And some of the thugs would do it out of curiosity and some would do it, you know, for future and quite a gang of loaf. See, because things have gotten to slacking, people wasn't working and they looking for some place to loaf, you know. And so the result of that, they would come down after the Sunday, before they had certain recreation facilities down there that they could enjoy. And so they-- they came down.

Gottlieb: Now you said that the company hired people like Nelson and they hired him in every place they had a mill to--

Joseph M.: Mhm. Mhm.

Gottlieb: -- Try to bring about conditions which would keep the Black people. Joseph M.: [simultaneous talking] Mhm. Mhm. That's right. Gottlieb: Was there a big problem with turnover? Joseph M.: Say what? Gottlieb: Was there a big problem with turnover, with a lot of Black people moving through all the time?

Joseph M.: Years afterwards-- someone I can't think who it was. They gave the statistics of the transportation that was brought in and the one that stayed and the one that that left and was a very small percentage was the ones that stuck, you know. But you see the amount of money that the company made. They didn't lose anything because the one that stayed paid for the ones that didn't. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Yes, sir.

Gottlieb: There would would be a lot of men who would just come into town for a few weeks or a few months?

Joseph M.: Some of them would come in on transportation and would never go to sign up. They would jump the transportation. Yeah.

Gottlieb: What did-- what did they do after they got here if they didn't sign up at the mill?

Joseph M.: I don't know. I don't know. They would-- They wouldn't-- Company that brought them here, you know, they would leave them around here, you know, and couldn't keep a tab on them. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: It must have been pretty crowded in Homestead in those years.

Joseph M.: It was very crowded. So much so until-- what the company would do. They would take street by street and they would make a survey of people that could accommodate these people, you know, for sleeping quarters and for boarding lodgers. And they had quite a few houses down here that would accept it, you know, and take some. Now, the fellow that lived in this house, he took some of them and he had them upstairs and had them up in the attic. Up in the attic. It's the equivalent of three rooms, say. Well, it is three.