M., Joseph, November 16, 1973, tape 1, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: The following is an interview with Joseph M., Sr., of 114 West 12th Avenue, Homestead, Pennsylvania, recorded on November 16th, 1973, at Mr. M.'s home. Um, could you just start out by telling me when you were born, as close as you remember and-- and about your boyhood in Richmond?

Joseph M., Sr.: Well, I can tell you part, I couldn't tell you when I was born. But I told you the first time I'd ever seen the sun to know what I was looking at. At 1214 North First Street, Richmond, Virginia, that's between here and Fruit Street, Jeffrey Court, Fruit Street, Brighton [??]. And I told you that, uh, my father and my mother separated, and I tell you that she left her with her blood family. And I was the only boy. The other boy died. And, uh, my mother was having it pretty rough. And for that reason, I started-- a doctor, and he didn't adopt me, but he took me and I stayed with them. And he clothed me. He fed me. He'd give me money, he'd give me-- he paid me a dollar a month. And-- I was s'posed been a driver and I was just in the burg [??], but I had the reins. But he was doing the driving. And so every day he would give me a quarter or $0.50. I'd save it. Well end of the month. I didn't save all of it. Sometime instead of giving me a dollar, he might give me $5. I put in my pocket and I cut out, you know, and I'd give it to my mother. And as I told you, I've been working all of my life. And so when things got tougher, I couldn't stay there. I had to try to get someplace where I could get more money. So then I started working on a transfer.

Joseph M.: And at that time, I had-- no one had ever seen an automobile, I don't think. All you seen was horses and wagons and buggies. And sometime you see people come in town with a load of watermelons, you know, a load of this with oxcarts. Well, I start workin' on transfer, I'm not makin' no money. And then I got to the place where I could do a little bit better. So I went over to the Jefferson Hotel. That's over on Grace and Fourth. And so I worked there a while. And when I went over there, I was washing dishes. So they had a machine where you just put the dishes in and had a pedal that you would pedal it, you know, and shake them up, you know, and then you take them out and push it over and-- and so forth. And so I worked at the Jefferson. Well, what I was trying to do, I was trying to advance with my finance in order to help my mother. And so for that reason, it robbed me of an education to an extent. And so I got to be a pretty good sized boy before I got a chance to go to school to get any education whatsoever because of the fact-- you see learning at that time it wasn't an emergency. Other words, you didn't just have to go to school. That law hadn't been enacted. And so that's what happened to me. And so-- well, in fact, it impeded my progress to some extent.

Joseph M.: And so then I went from-- from the Jefferson Hotel. I went to the Richmond Cedar Works, and then I went from the Richmond Cedar Works to the Southern Freight House and from the Southern Freight House. I went to T.W. Woods and I went from T.W. Woods. Then I went to David M Lee's and I worked at David M Lee's until about 1911. 11. And some fellas was going to New York and they were telling me about how much money I could make up there. See, this as a water boy, and so I went with them. So that's why I told you about that. I was-- where I was-- where we went. It was between New York City and Albany. But we was closer to Albany than we were to New York. As a result there was slope up there in Albany, down at Hudson, because where I was definitely it was between Hudson and Albany, a place called Newton Hook on one side of the Hudson River and on the other side it was Cook Socket. And so I went up there, and that was in 1911. And so I'd gotten a little taste then of going here then. And so that's I came here. Oh, I'm sorry. And-- and the way I got here, I was going to one place. I was just going to Pittsburgh or to Chicago. And so I seen some old fellas and they said they was coming. I said, I believe I'll go to Pittsburgh.

Joseph M.: And so I came to Pittsburgh. And so when I got here, I didn't know anyone. And so I could shoot pool. I was about 16 or 17 years old. And somewhere along in there, I'm just guessing. And I used to go in the pool, shoot pool, shoot for money. I had to, and I was pretty good at it. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: So finally, one day I was up and I kept on walkin' down the avenue and I think the country was in war with Mexico. I think it was Mexico. I think they were chasing Villa around down there and I think this fella came in and he said, Who wants a job? Nobody said nothing. So I finally said, Me. He said, I said, You go down to the Carnegie building and tell them that Brown sent you down there so you get a job. I said, Well, I have nothing to lose. If I get it, I got it. And if I don't get it, I'm no worse off because I didn't have it to start with. So I went down and I got down there. I asked the receptionist about it and she said, Well, she said, The boss, she said. Isn't here now [??] she said, left for lunch. She said, You come back around about 1 or 1:30 so you can catch him. Okay. So I left and went on back up Frank Sutton's down on Sixth. And I went in shooting pool. Finally I looked at my watch and I had my watch like this.

Joseph M.: And I had a pop it right there, and I went back down. So I went back to her. And she comes, say, Yes, you go up on the tenth floor, so you ain't been yet. She said, But you go up on the 10th floor and you go down the hall and you see the word, William. It's written in white there. So I got the elevator up on the 10th floor, and then I got up there and started down the hall looking for the say, it's William, you know, on the door. I said, So many people standing there. I guess there's 12 or 15. I said. I said something like an employment over there. At least that's what I thought. And so I stopped. After a while, stayed that way. [unintelligible] You know. Know. It's not just me doing it. I was standing beside the wall. I didn't know. I didn't know anybody. I didn't have anybody to speak for me. So after a bit, he came and opened the door and he opened the door again. I stood where I was because after that, I'm a stranger in Pittsburgh. See? And these people that are here, they. They must live here. They know something about Pittsburgh. And so I stand beside the wall. So he comes up. And he stopped up and he looked at my watch and he finally said to me, So what do you want? I said, Well, I said, a fellow by the name of Brown told me if I came down to see you I had a chance of getting a job, he said, Come in.

Joseph M.: He hired me. Gottlieb: Huh. Joseph M.: The superintendent, I mean the president of the Carnegie Steel Company at the time-- it wasn't US Steel at that time, it wasn't US Steel at the time. He hired me. He told me. He said, you go down the stairs. Another fellow named Brown, I tell Brown to give you a suit of overalls. So I left the elevator and he told me not the street floor, but beneath the street floor. So I went down and I went down and I called for, Hey, Brown. Hey, Brown. Say,Yeah. I said, Some white-- White-- White haired fella up on the 10th floor told me to tell you to give me a suit of overalls. And he knew who it was, so he give it to me. And so they started me out, going around down in machinery, you know? And I just worry about the grease, you know, on the floor. And I cleaned that up and I take out the garbage or the trash, you know, and I take that on the elevator and take it over where the garbage people could get it, the refuse people. And so I stayed there. And so finally another fella left. And I'd been there, I guess, for possibly a month, maybe longer than that. And it was a fella that he was the chief, he was the chief recorder for the Carnegie Steel Company. The name of George Truman, a tall, light skinned fella.

Joseph M.: And so he and I talk a little bit. And then him and I played some pool together. And so-- what-- one-- somebody in his office quit. And so he asked me, he says, You think you can do the job? I said, I don't know. I've never done that kind of-- He said, you can do it. He said, I'll help you. He said, Come on. So he put me in there as a file clerk, and I stayed there. Then this must have been about-- possibly, just in 12. I got here in April in 12, 1912. It must have been summer. So I stayed there until 1916. But the wages low, but it was very slow raising wages over there. But they raised wages over here in the industry. And so they started raising the wages and they raised their wages from $.13 an hour to $0.15 an hour. I stayed on there. And then they raised the wages again from $.15 to $0.18 an hour. I came right over here. Yeah, so I got over here. This was in 1916. They put me up at the 48 in the boiler house. And so where I was working, when they would bring the coal in, we'd build a track up above and they'd knock the bottom of it. The coal would fall down. But we would be over here, you know, and no protection, nothing. And so we had to put something over our mouth and nose.

Joseph M.: And so whenever we would come out in the evening, quit. And the day would be over. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Why, you couldn't tell a white man from a Black one. Everybody was brothers. Because you can't tell-- that coal dust. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And at that time, they didn't have no such thing as a stoker. You had to throw your shovel, your coal in. You had to pull your own cinders and ashes out, too. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And so I stayed there then until. Didn't I say it was 1916. So the 10th day of April-- No, I'm wrong. In 19 and 17. The 10th day of April, they started to build a mill at 110, plate mill because at that time there was in war, you know, with Germany. And uh, I wanted to double out because I wanted to make some of that long money and see. So I went to the fellow that was going to be the superintendent. I asked about it and they told me say, yeah, they were going to build a mill. And went to the fellow by the name of Mr. Holman, he was the superintendent of labor. And so I went to Holman and told him that I wanted to get a transfer. I wanted to go down to the 100 inch mill. Of course they were going to build a mill and I could get more time. And he readily agreed. And so I worked in that labor until they start to buildin' the mill.

Joseph M.: So whenever they were going to dig the foundation at the beginning that was the excavation, they took a bunch of us on a flat car from up in the labor gang, general labor and up in and they carried us down to this job. And the first peg that was stuck for that mill, I was one of the gang that helped to stick it. So after we dug out the foundation, you know, and got ready to pour concrete for the foundation, foreman came out and said, So who can run a concrete mixer? Nobody know anything about a concrete mixer. I said, I can. He said, Come here. So I went over there and all I had to do was a lot-- pour in the cement and the sand, you know, and the gravel and I had the water, the hose and I could turn the hose on. And all I had to do is to work a lever, you know, and bring the-- the trap up and dump it back down for it to be refilled. And they put it there, you know, dump it over into this. Wherever you-- You know what I'm talking about, right? Gottlieb: Yes, yes. Joseph M.: And I done that job. So after they got the mill up and when they were going to start the mill when they started the 10th day of April 1917, and they rolled the first slab, the 10th day of October, 1917, six months. And so just before they started in there, I had made an inquire.

Joseph M.: And so I asked my foreman about who was going to be the superintendent. And he told me, he said, I'll show him to you. So he showed me the fellow that was going to be superintendent. So I went to him and told him, I said, Listen. I said, Someone told me that you were going to be the superintendent of this mill. I said, What about getting a job? He said, Well, he said, I can't make you a promise now. He said, but he told me that they were going to start, said, when you come out and said, don't go to the labor gangs. So you come down to the mill. And so the day they started, I went down the mill and said it was placing the fellows and placing the fellows and finally took me and put me on the top. Well, that was an inside job, you see, because labor gang, you'd be outside, inside and everywhere. That was an inside job. And I wanted it because I wanted to get on the outside. And so that's how I got that job. And then I stayed there, but I stayed there until I came out in 1960. But during that time we had what was known as a panic, and then we had a Depression, had a strike, so forth. And. I stayed on. But a lot of times, one time in 1921, I think it was, we had a panic, and.

Joseph M.: Wasn't any work to be done. So they called us in the office and they said, the fella says there will be no work as far as the mill is concerned and all of you that can get a job, get it, but work one day a month in order to keep your check. Okay. So I got a job driving for a fella by the name of Mr. Khan. He was a Jew. He had a store on Eighth Avenue. He had a brother in law that married to his sister by the name of Mr. Bernard. He lived on Beechwood Boulevard and had a store on the corner of Holland and Kirkwood. And so I drove as much for him as I did for the man that hired me. Gottlieb: I see. Joseph M.: And so I worked there. But I would have to put in one day a month, you know, I told them that I had to put in one day a month in order to keep my check. And so at that time, you know, it was no such thing as welfare and Salvation Army and the Red Cross couldn't take care of everybody because there wasn't anyone working. So some of us got the job and some didn't. And so I stayed there until work started over. I started up again and I came back. Well, that was one time that it was kind of a vacancy of my services in the mill. And then the next time was in 1929 and the bottom fell out of Wall Street.

Joseph M.: I guess you heard about it. You might not know about it. And so then it was a Depression and. Wasn't any work. Soup line, they had. Oh, my goodness. You'd find them any place. You'd be going from there to Pittsburgh. You might see 2 or 3 soup lines. You'd see hundreds of people in line trying to get soup, that was in 29, but somehow I never was in the soup line. I always-- well, I always had some I don't know how I could-- I'd get out somehow. The reason of that, though, too, just like-- like this panel. And you see here, I could do that kind of work. See, I've done this. And you take, like, this kind of work, pen and and hanging paper and painting and that kind of a thing, see? And then I could cut hair, you know, I worked in a barber shop at there about [??], you know, helping people. I, I could do a lot of different things and I could pick up a quarter, a dime here and dime there. But the biggest part of my work, like this kind of work and I could paper and that kind of a thing the people wanted it done, but they wasn't able to pay for it, you see what I mean? So the results, it was just-- it's just like you would have a lot of money and you would let it out on property.

Joseph M.: And that's a. The bottom would fall out. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Uh, people want to buy, but they don't have the money. And you got your-- your money stuck in property. But then you would have a lot of frozen assets. By the way, you got it. In other words, you got something for it. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: But you can't dispose of it. And so anytime you have assets that you can't dispose of, this frozen asset, you got something on your hand you can't get shut of. And so that is it. The people want the work done but wasn't able to. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: To pay for it. And so I could pick up a quarter here, a dime there, one thing or another. So I made it very well. I never was in the soup line, but they had had one down on Fourth Avenue and had one here on Eighth Avenue. I think at the Second Ward school. They had 2 or 3 in Homestead and they had them out in Munhall and everybody white and colored, of course, up there in Munhall, it wasn't very many Black people lived up there. See, the biggest part of them was white. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And it was just one of those things. The bottom fall out of Wall Street. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: The entire world know something about it. You know what I mean? Gottlieb: Right. Joseph M.: I don't mean just the United States. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Uh huh. Joseph M.: I mean the world. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Mhm. And so that was it.

Gottlieb: I wanted to go way back and ask you some questions about the, uh, about when you went up to New York to work there in the Brickyard. Joseph M.: Brickyard? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Uh huh. Gottlieb: Uh, where did you meet the-- The-- the, uh, gang of men? Who-- Who told you about that job?

Joseph M.: The gang of men that I met. I met 'em there in Richmond because they had been. They had frick in [??] the brickyard. See, I hadn't. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: They told me they was going back and I just went up with them. But I had never been there before. But. But they had, they, they'd go up there practically every year. And so that's how I got to go up there.

Gottlieb: Was there some place in Richmond where, where, uh, uh, groups of Black men would hang out, where, where you could find out about jobs in the North, though, pool halls or around barbershops or bars or someplace like that? Was-- was it in a place like that where you just happened to hear about the job?

Joseph M.: No-- Gootlieb: Do you remember? Joseph M.: No. There were some fellas that I worked with that I-- that I frequent up there, but not there-- in Richmond we had employment offices. And so any time you wanted a job, you could apply at the employment office. We had one down on Ninth Avenue and we had one various parts of the city and you could just apply there. But sometimes you might be just like finding a dollar in the bottom of the river. See, you might be lucky to run across somebody like I did when I came and ended up, and he came pool, and the guy came and said who wanted a job, that just one of those lucky ones, see? Gottlieb: Yeah. Yeah. Joseph M.: But as a whole, whenever you'd want anything to do like that, you'd always have to apply to the employment and apply to the employment office.

Gottlieb: Did everybody know about these offices in Richmond? Was it common knowledge?

Joseph M.: I imagine. I imagine most of the people that lived there did. Yes. Yes. But do you take Richmond just like any other place. They had a lot of people coming in and out just like any other place, see, and the people that just got there, imagine, they wouldn't know anything about it. They might have to seek some information where they could go to find a job. And-- but people that lived there, practically all of them know about that.

Gottlieb: Were there special offices just for hiring Black people or were these offices be hiring people-- All different kinds of people?

Joseph M.: Anybody that went. You know, it was-- definitely it was integrated and whosoever will you know, if they would go and apply for a job, if they had that class of job or that kind of job they wanted, they would hire them. Gottlieb: Hmm.

Gottlieb: Did you go up to the Brickyard in order to earn more money to, uh--

Joseph M.: Yes. Yeah. That's why I went. Yeah, I was looking for more money.

Gottlieb: Yeah. And what about, uh, Homestead? Was that-- I mean, Pittsburgh? Did you come here for the same reason?

Joseph M.: Yes, indeed. Because they told me before I'd never been here. But I heard a fella. He'd been here, and I heard him talk one day and he was talking. He wasn't talkin' to me. He was talking to someone else. And he was talking about Pittsburgh, talking about how hilly it was and about the big money they paid here. You know, in Pittsburgh. You know, one time they paid the best salary. It was up and down. The Starlight. And he was here and he was talking about how hilly it was and about he didn't want to come here anymore. And this thing and that thing, he was talking about that money. And so when he was talking about the money, that's what I want. That's how I got to come here, because I decided to go up to Pittsburgh or to Chicago.

Gottlieb: So when you were first up here, you were-- when you were earning your wages, you would be sending some of that back home to your mother.

Joseph M.: Oh, yes. Yeah, I took care of my mother. I had to take care of her. I was the only boy and the girls all got married. Gottlieb: I see. Joseph M.: And so she was living with one. One of my sisters. But I had to take care of her. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: Oh, I could tell you so much about that. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Let me let me ask you this. Did-- Did your mother have jobs herself when you were growing up as a boy?

Joseph M.: Yes, she had jobs. In other words, my mother, she would work all day. Sometimes she'd come home, she had to work and iron overnight. And a lot of times I've looked at it. She would come in and she'd wash and iron and maybe she'd be so tired, she'd just go and lay across the bed like this and drop off to sleep. And then she'd have to get up and go again. And that was her life. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: And I used to look at it and my heart would burst in my body. Gottlieb: Yeah. Moorfield: I couldn't do it. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Now, where a lot of kids take the money and enjoy it, there just no any way I could enjoy a quarter. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: When my mother was under those conditions. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: You see what I mean? Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: And so I took care of her. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: Yeah. I send the money to, uh. I went down there in 19 and-- 1918. And I got down there, her teeth had decayed. I didn't say anything. I came back. I said, oh my God. I don't know where to go. And so it was another white lady lived on the same tree. Her name was Schofield. Her name was Sarah Schofield. And somehow the mail man got the letter mixed up and he dropped it off in the mail box of Schofield and she took the letter. I've done the same thing. Through a mistake. Not looking carefully at the name and opening, she found $100. She go on and give it to my mother. That was white lady. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph M.: She did, give it to my mother. And in the letter, I told her that was to have her teeth fixed. You see? I-- at that time, you get a set of teeth for maybe $50 or $60, something like that. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Joseph M.: And so I used to do that and my goodness, I. And then I remember-- Oh, you got me in something now. I'd get a kick out it.

Gottlieb: Yeah, go ahead and tell me. Joseph M.: Hm? Gottlieb: Go ahead and tell me.

Joseph M.: Well, uh, I took care of her. And I give her excess money because she wasn't extravagant. And one of the reasons she wasn't extravagant, she had never been used to it. She had never had the privilege of having excess money where she could enjoy a little bit over here. And so I wanted to make it possible for her. Otherwise, if she wanted to throw it away, I want to give her enough to throw away. And so I, I took care of her. And so I had done that a long time. I was livin' there. So she got sick and they sent me a telegram if I wanted to see her living.