T., John, November 1 and 23, 1976, tape 3, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: The following is a [unintelligible] Of 2035 Crestas Avenue, North Versailles. In Allegheny County, Pennsylvania.

Gottlieb: The following is a continuation of the interview of-- [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: All the time that you were working at Westinghouse, you were also doing, uh, church work of different kinds. John T.: Oh yeah. Gottlieb: You were still active, so you had really two different kinds of jobs. John T.: Yeah. Gottlieb: I was just interested if-- John T.: I was working in person and preaching all the same time. Now, the first church I pastored, I organized it out in the cement works. Out in University, organized the church over there. Gottlieb: Now, where was that? John T.: Out in University, cement works. Yeah, we had to make cement building. I went there and organized the church up there. That's where I got a name. Gottlieb: I see. John T.: When they called me, I organized the church. I was just a licensed preacher. I couldn't baptize. I couldn't marry nobody. And I could bury folks, but I couldn't give the Lord's Supper. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: But then he called me out there, and I organized the church, and they wanted me for the pastor of the church. Well, then they ordained me with the understanding that-- I didn't pass, first, but they had ordained me with the understanding that I'd keep going to school, you see? Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: And I pastored out there. There they go-- three years. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: I was called from there then to Wilkinsburg on Penn Avenue. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: I was called out to that church, Mount Calvary Baptist Church. And I went there and I built that church up, fell down when I went there. And I built it up and I bought two nice lots and I was going to build a church. I had that all the people with me, the mayor of the town and all.

John T.: Then all these big shots in the Westinghouse. They all know me. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And they all recognized me as a minister, you see. So I had them out on my programs and all and they'd come out and make big speeches for me and throw money on the table and them $20 and all like that. We raised good money and we bought two nice lots and we was going to build a church, gon' build a church. Well the company told me if I'd raise a $15,000, he'd put money up a church and pay for it like I wanted, you see. Well, we that bought them lots and paid for it and we was going town raising money. And then I stayed there pretty near three years and a half. Then I was called to a bigger church in Belle Vernon. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: I was preaching when my, some of them members now. Town next to it. And some of them members come over and heard me one Sunday preach. Then they didn't have no pastor in Belle Vernon. And they went back. I was preaching in the Mount Essen. He went back and told the people that they had the preachers man, they over here. So they got in touch with me somehow or another and wanted me to come up and preach for him. I said, Where is Belle Vernon? I didn't know where Belle Vernon was. They told me. I said, What do you know about me? Say, some of the members heard me preach in there. They want me to preach at that church.

John T.: I told them I'd come up and preach for them. I went up preach.

John T.: Well, I didn't think I'd ever get back up there. Some folks just sat there and looked at me and you could hear a pin fall. Nobody didn't say nothin'. I told my wife I never get back there no more. But I knowed I was gonna get that church and my mind because I dreamt it. I seen the church and all in my sleep. And when I drove up to the church, it was in a White settlement. No Colored folks around. And I thought it was a nice church. I thought it was a White people church and a Colored fella stand across the street. And I asked him, where he went to church, the Colored people, said that's the church right there. I went back to the car and I told my wife, I says, this church, I've seen my sleep. I've preached in this church, in my sleep. So I went on in and had service with them. So when I left that night, everybody shook hands. Told men and I said, Well, I'll never get back in. It was the coldest church I ever preached in. But two weeks later, they call me back. When can I come up and preach and give communion? I told them yes, I'd come up. So I went back up there. And they was fixing to call a pastor. And I didn't know it. I didn't know what they wanted. Went up there and preach, give communion. Preached two sermons, morning and evening. So we dismissed them that night. All of them come to me and shake hands and say Reverend, we certainly did enjoy your service. We're going to have you back again. I said, Well, maybe the Lord fix it so we can be back. Come on home.

John T.: Couple of weeks from there, phone ring one night, 12:00. No, they call me, they want to know, could a committee see me. I told them yes and told them with them could see me. But didn't have no idea they were calling no pastor and nobody wouldn't call me because they didn't know me. So four the deacons come down and talk and he said, I didn't call no pastor. And the only thing he said to me, Reverend, would you mind us using your name? And I didn't give it a thought. I said, If you want it. Didn't know what they were talking about. So they went on back. The next Friday they were going to call a minister. The next Friday night I went to bed and about 12:00 phone rang. Well, I thought somebody might call me. A lot of time I get called if somebody bad off sick in the hospital. Go pray for him. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And I said, Lord, wonder who called me this time of night, I don't want to get out here tonight. And there's one of the deacons up here and I answer the phone, say Reverend John T.. Deacon Lemon from Belle Vernon, Reverend, how you doing? I said, I'm fine. Deacon, how are you? Doin' fine. Says how your people? Oh, just fine. That's good. Say, well, we call a pastor tonight. I said, You did? Yeah. I said, Well, I certainly hope you call a nice man and somebody will pastor your church and get to success. Said, I think so. We called you. I was speechless. I couldn't see-- I said, called me? Yeah, we called you. I said, You folks don't know nothing about me. Why you call me, there's seven or eight preachers trying to get it? I said, you folks don't know me. Said, We know more about you than we think, you think we know.

John T.: He said, 25 voted against you and 175 voted for you. So I think we got you. Wanted to know when could I come up and talk it over? I could have went the next week, but I wouldn't-- I wouldn't let them know I was anxious. Gottlieb: Yeah. Yeah. John T.: I put them off a couple of weeks. I went back up there, talked it over, come to terms on payment and all. Told them what's on that ticker next on that take over his path. Everything went nice. Well, they ain't got no pastor, naturally folks don't attend so good. And he told me what they could pay me. And if people started coming back, they raise my wages. $45 a Sunday they give me to start off.

John T.: I was working, I was making good money. I was making $125 a week in the plant. I said, No, don't put it up too high. You gotta take care of your church.

John T.: As if you say you give me $5, $5 or Sunday for five Sunday or Sunday. If I'd take it, I'd want that nickel because of mine. So we can pay you. All right. Well, a fellow, Hunt had been there four years. He took in one member on Christian experience in four years. I was there six months. I took in 58 Christian experience and baptized 47. And if you didn't get there eleven o'clock, you didn't get a seat in that church. All standing room in there, I run it over. So I stayed there and they was runnin' so well. They want me to stop workin'.

John T.: Said, Reverend, we don't want you to work. You're the best pastor we ever had. They had two beautiful lots, say we gonna build your apartment, say we can take care of the preacher. We don't want you workin'. I said, No, I can't do that. I said, Now as long as you want me to pastor the church, I'll pastor. I said, I'm too old. I got a good job. If I still had my job three more years, 2 or 3 more years, I'd be on pension.

John T.: And I said, if I get down sick 12 months or something, I said, You folks can't have preachin'. If I get old, you gonna want a young man. If I stay in the Westinghouse, I said, I get 65 years old. I ain't got nothing to worry about. I have a pension coming as long as I live. I said as long as you want me to pastor, I'll pastor. If you want me to quit my job. I said, get you another preacher because I ain't quit my job. So I stayed with them five years. And I seen he didn't like it so well. You know, but they wanted me to work, so I give up. I was too old anyhow. I give up pastor.

John T.: I give it up-- I go up here now. And those people, Reverend, we ain't done no good since you. We-- You still our pastor. We ain't done no good since you left here. But I had a nice church up there. John T.: Were there a lot of other men like you--

Gottlieb: Preaching in this area who-- Who work during the day, had regular jobs?

John T.: No. You know the most preachers-- You want talk to me? Unidentified speaker: No, I was say Reverend Dukes. Tisadale: Oh, yeah. We had only one more I know of. The fellow I was telling you about, had the next biggest church in Braddock, Reverend Dukes. He worked in the steel mill. See, he belongs to my club minister union. And that's where we all got churches by working and preaching. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And he-- He stayed on. He's in the mill.

Gottlieb: Well, what happened to all those other fellas?

John T.: Most of them dead. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. John T.: Yeah. Most all the other boys-- Let me see if either one of those boys living now. Yeah, there's only one more, Reverend Dukes. And little while, that little Reverend White-- honey. You know Reverend White. He belongs to our union. He's on-- There's only three of us living, all the rest of them dead now.

Gottlieb: I was speaking of back when you first came up here. At that time, were there lots of-- John T.: No. Gottlieb: --pastors who work?

John T.: No, no, no, no.

Gottlieb: Most of them were full time. John T.: Yeah, full

John T.: time preachers. Unidentified speaker: [unintelligible] John T.: No, Duke was just a licensed preacher when I come here, you know. Unidentified speaker: But he was working. John T.: Yeah, he worked all the time. But he won't pastor. Gottlieb: I see. John T.: But most of the pastors was pastorin' churches. He didn't work at that time because. Only about a few here. Gottlieb: I see. John T.: 1 or 2 here. Then after we got out and got their thing going good and they got the church around and organized different churches, that's way come about. But we was-- New Hope, that's the leading church in Braddock, you know, for, pastor there. Church she belongs to, they furnished them as pastors and everything, furnished them. And so much--

Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] They gave them a full salary?

John T.: Yeah. Full salary. Yeah. They preachers. They won't work.

Gottlieb: When you would become a pastor of a church, why-- Why wouldn't they give you a position like that full time?

John T.: They weren't able. Gottlieb: They weren't able to. John T.: They couldn't pay you. You didn't have but a few members. And all they could do to keep the little church going. Now, when I come here, Doctor Preston was here. Big shot from Philadelphia. He's paying him $200 a month. He's parson, all the expenses. Month vacation we pay. All I got was-- that was big money then. Gottlieb: Sure. John T.: I ain't making $200 a month preaching and pastor and everything punished. That was good money. Then there was a big preacher. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: And-- but the other little churches, they just had their man. Sometime he didn't have but 35, 40 members, you see, they could raise enough money now. Fella Willow Way Baptist Church, when I come here to the man down there, Reverend McLaughlin, he took that church for $4 a week. Well, that's all he was gettin' there, and they had to pay room, room and everything else that was out of fellowship. But he stuck there and built a nice church and kept getting in members on. He built a nice church, Reverend Taylor pastor of that church now. McLaughlin died. He stayed there 32 years and he built a nice church down on the corner of Town Avenue and East Street. Nice, but it wasn't but a-- a little, that church didn't have a little holy, holy church, holy thing, that man worked features there-- most old storefronts, some of them.

John T.: Yeah. He told me. He said the ground make it there now. We worked our way up through that. I pastored them and organized church and the pastor there in Wilkinsburg. And from there I went to Belle Vernon and I done good at all of my churches. Build them up good. That's way I come along. But I worked all the time because I-- I never wanted to depend on nobody. I always wanted to be independent. I don't want to depend on you for nothing. I said, I might want something this week. Born a suit of clothes and Negro system [??] and I got depend on the church to do it. I don't know how I'm going to raise enough money Sunday to do what I want to do now. Well, if I wasn't go in there then made my day. I know I'm going to get what I want. Then you-- people will recognize you more if you're working independent. Because the folks you ain't got nothing, you depend on church for everything you get. You don't do everything they want you to do, they'll sit down on you. They won't put in. Won't pay off.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Besides that, you were in a position to help your people. John T.: Yeah, sure. Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] by being down there in Westinghouse.

John T.: Working, I could help them, and I could get programs and putting on rallies and things, and I could go to all of them big shots down, and everybody knows me through the plant-- I took in, I turned in $125 on rallies to donate people to give me, know from my church and put the name down, the month and year. I'm getting on rallies. I'm getting $125 that we could to donate to the church to help us out, you know, especially when there's burning coal then, had to raise money for the body want a coal then. I turned in $40 and $50 every year, that people give me a little something on coal and everybody liked me down there. They know me.

Gottlieb: Did those-- did those big companies like Westinghouse and US Steel around, did they support many Black churches? Was it-- John T.: Oh, yes. Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] It was common for them?

John T.: Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, there's so much money that all these companies got to put down for charity. You see, there's so much money they got to give for charity every year, you see. And if you go in and put in for a donation, they have to help you. They would help you. And if they know you, you work in there and all, working for them and all, well, man, you get it.

Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Did-- did they expect anything from you when they gave you money for your church?

John T.: No. Just donation. That was a donation they have to give, charity, for charities. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: You have. They give so much for charity, they get that off their tax, you see. Gottlieb: Yeah. Yeah. John T.: I had to-- give in them tax. If you working there now this little church up here, the church you pastor in, there's the one man down there that pastor in the Westinghouse he pretty much paid for that church. He knowed Mr. Carter, our commissioner up here and during the Depression they was building that church. There was nobody work and nobody had nothing. And they had the church built and the-- for it and all and every payday. He told Carter to come down there with them, pay with you and said, I like that little church, I'm gonna keep my arms around it. And every payday. He'd go down there and he'd write a check for that amount of money. On that church, but paid for.

John T.: Yeah. You made it nice and happy in here. They, uh. I went down there and had some benches and tables made for the church. Made them here. They made for the church.

John T.: But then I-- everything I buy, I get a ten cent discount on everything because I'm a minister. Clothes, anything I buy. I get a ten cent discount. That's on food, get that on food, clothes and anything else, get a ten cent discount. Pay the minister.

John T.: And you'd be surprised. How a preacher can help folks. Now a long time, my folks ain't learned good yet. If you member my church, you can get a job much better.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Is that right? John T.: Oh, yes, my Lord.

John T.: You go down there and, you know, such and such a man preaching and my pastor. And that belongs to this church, you know, trouble get job. I've had boys to come here, don't belong to nobody's church and trying to get me to give them a baptizing certificate so they could get a job. They could show the baptizing certificate that it belongs to such and such church. With the baptized there, is easy to get a job and I've had them come here, wouldn't join nobody's church and wouldn't go to church and wanted me to get them baptized and saved like I baptized them. And I tell them no, what do you think I'm going to tell a lie for you? See, you don't think enough of church to join? I don't think nobody gon give you no baptizing certificate. But you go down there and tell them you belong to the church and show them your baptized certificate, they think you're honest. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Nice church man. John T.: They put you to work. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: Otherwise when they got-- know something you want. Want to know something about your background. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: No, no. I could go down there, I had-- after I started putting them girls in the plant down there. All the lot of the preachers, all them big preachers in town, they call about him. Reverend John T., I heard you was putting Colored girls in the plant. Yes, I am. I got a girl in my church who finished high school or some of them going to college, and I prepared to be people on [??]. Send her down there and tell them, Reverend John T. sent her, go down there and say, I recommend her down there. A lot of time I call up people in the plant. Reverend John T., did you recommend such and such who want such and such a--? Yes, I did. Put her to work. I ain't never seen her.

Gottlieb: You got to be like a-- like one of the people in the hiring office yourself. John T.: Yeah. Yeah.

John T.: They come to me. I had a White man in Rankin, lived across the street in front of me, made a nice neighbor. He had two boys and a girl and nice German, nice family. And I'm putting my folks to work. And she had worked with some of the vice presidents at the plant. She had a brother in law, worked in the plant, and they all was pulling for her, trying to get her husband on. They didn't have no job. And. She came over to my house one day and. Say this funny thing.

John T.: She couldn't get her husband on. She worked for someone on the big shots. And they couldn't get her husband on. My wife said, Well, my husband can put him to work. Well, he's doing so much for his folks. I'm ashamed to ask him. He said, Well, it don't make no difference in color. He can help you and he help any of the other folks.

John T.: Well, now to the lot of Colored folk live down lower end of the street, but not right up where I was. And she lived right across the street in front of me. And when I go on my vacation every year, I just walk cross the street and hand her my key. She'd go in that house every day and aired out and get my mail, anybody knock on my door, Reverend's not home. Nicest neighbor there was. So the next day my wife told me and I went on, went over there, and I said to him, Come on, let me take a little ride. He jumped in the car and I get him right on down the plant, up in the employment office, and I say to the man, say this a neighbor of mine, a nice man, and he got a wife and three lovely children. Says he's a good mill right man, and he's a good welder. And I said, for the sake of those nice kids, I want you to put him work for me. All right, Reverend, I'll just do that for you. Well, now, if I wanted to put you in, I could go down in everybody's name application. I could pull different ones and bring you over them in rotation, but I could pull it. Bring you in. So-- say you hear from me? Say, That's all right. That's all right. Just go back three days later. We sittin' out eatin', and here she come in, the door was open to the house. And she flew in their house and screaming. And they grabbed me around the neck. I said, What the matter? I thought someone kids got killed or something. I said, What happened? Lord have mercy. Long as they've been pulling for my husband and nobody can help him. You just tell them, he got a letter to go over and put him to work [laughs]. That woman was so glad she didn't know what to do. That Christmas he give me. Um.

John T.: White shirt and a black necktie. Give me a brand new pocket book. $5. Brand new $5 bill in it. And she gave my wife, one or two of these Turkish towels and a 5 pound box of candy for Christmas. I said, Honey, I didn't charge you nothing for putting your husband to work.

John T.: She said, Reverend, if you hadn't got a job, I wouldn't have had a dime for myself. You and nobody else. And every Christmas, they give us a nice present. Gottlieb: Oh, isn't that nice? John T.: They didn't forget us. They gave us a nice present. Say I didn't charge you nothing. I said it was a pleasure. I said much of you done for me, says I'll leave here and just hand you my key. You take care of my house and all. Said, I would be left on the main charge you anything. But she was a happy soul. He stayed there. I guess paying pension is still there. Yeah, she's still there. But I think he's out on pension now. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: He make it. Yeah, he make it. Then I had another Colored boy from town. He and his wife, a young couple. They had one little girl, that was the prettiest kid I ever seen in my life. Couldn't hardly tell them from White and that little girl, just like that, her little hair just stood and curled. They come out to my house one day and said, Reverend, they didn't have nothing to eat at home, nothing. Said if you could put my husband to work, they'd be the turning point of my life. Said on,

John T.: I say you stay here till I come back. I take him, get him on down there. And I walk in the employment office and said, Now I want you to put this man to work for me. I said, They ain't got a mouth in the house and he is starving to death. There's a nice people, nice church folks. Says, Put him to work for me. All right, Reverend. Call him. Bring him in in the morning. I'll put him to work.

John T.: I didn't see that boy. In about three months. I got a box. I got a suit of clothes. When the box come from Kaufman. Our name and order. I said,

John T.: Say, you order anything from Kaufman? I don't know where Kaufman is. I don't-- I never been in Kaufman. I said, Well, my name on it and I'm home and I open it, and they done send me a nice blanket, bed blanket, $9 or something. The prices on it and a nice letter thanking me. They hope the Lord would bless me. And I could do a lot for my fault. I didn't see him no more in two years. I come out to plant one day coming home, and I run up on him and he hugged me. He patted me, said, Reverend, I'm still here. Say, he hadn't lost a day. He worked every day since I put him to work here. And he said, Reverend, if I live a thousand years, I'll never forget you. And you the cause, you saved my life for me. He say anything I can ever do for you, I'll do it and say I made every day, where I work. Said the people like me. And I'm getting along fine and say we're doing good. House keeping and bought the furniture and all. We're doing good. Well, they appreciate what I've done for. She told me she won't. She couldn't pay me, never could pay me for what I'd done. But just let me know that she appreciate as much as she could say. Yeah, that's a nice blanket.

Gottlieb: It must be very gratifying for you.

John T.: Just to think back over what I've done for folks and I-- I help people, can put them work and all. It makes me feel good. Gottlieb: Sure. John T.: I've done something to help somebody and it didn't make no difference to me. Yeah, I hope this was helping somebody. Now I-- During the Depression so bad, everybody trying to get on the rail stop and they is cutting lights off, knocking windows out the house, trying to make folk get out because they couldn't pay rent and all. Organized the club.