T., John, November 1 and 23, 1976, tape 2, side 2

John T.: Okay. They gotcha. But the Democrat and Republican, Democrat and Republican. But when we meet the man run for the office, whether he is a Republican or a Democrat, if we thought he was the best man, the whole business goes for him. Democrats and Republicans vote for him. We just wouldn't vote because he's a Democrat or 'cause he's a Republican. But you're trying to get the best man in the office, you see. And that's what they found out. And they couldn't get us apart. So you tell them, if you want to get in, you better go through Crestas [??] and you can get them guys on your side. You'll make it. But that's way they all got in. Now this last woman that got elected up here, was a tax collector Mrs. McCann, her husband, tax collector for years. But he's the best man ever lived. That man that, you know, you.

John T.: Back behind in your taxes. Sometime they have so many years to put them aside for tax and if you didn't have the money he'd always notify you when there's going to be sold and all. And you didn't have the money, he'd lend you the money. Then you pay him, you see, and he keep you up on everything. And he done so many. You didn't have all your money for your taxes. You pay him so much. He paid the rest of it. Then you pay him. But then he got sick for years and he-- it always last time he was in there, he wasn't able to campaign. He just sat down and wrote his friends letters, you know, and asked them to vote for him and he won it, they put him back in there. Well, his wife took over the business. Well, he died and they wouldn't even let her finish out the term. He died this week and she was kicked out the next week. He just had a meeting and put a writer and put this fella Boyd in. So time come election, she run again. She had no money man. So she called me up and she come up and talk with me and I said I wouldn't work for you or nobody else for money. On the principle now, when my wife was sick, three years, just the last two years she was sick. I had to wait on a like a nursing baby. I went to pay my tax and that man would write me a clear receipt and paid my taxes. Said, Reverend, I know your condition. Your wife is sick and you're in bad shape. Your taxes paid. Now give me a clear receipt. Well, you know, I wouldn't go against him.

John T.: But then when his wife run, I said, Now everything I can do for you, I'm going to do it. I said, you know, I don't want a penny. I wouldn't work for a rich man for money. I said, Because if I work for you, pay me when you get in. You don't owe me no favors because you paid me for-- for working for you. I said I wasn't workin' for it. I said, I'm working for the best man out there. So I told her what I was gonna do. I got good influence up here. Folks believe in me. Anyhow, I went around, campaigned for her, and she beat the guy to it. She beat him 100 and-- 1,020 votes and he put up all kinds of money,campaign money, you know. And still she beat him. So we got her back in there and she's a nice woman. And she took care of that office just like her husband did. And she was friendly and nice with everybody. And when my wife was sick, every time I got there, she said-- she gave me some money for my wife and she'd make my wife candy, homemade candy and cookies and things. And suddenly, you see, well, now you couldn't go back in somebody like that. So we put her, she, she got it back again now. But she going to have to have her office in her house because they kicked her out and won't run the office there in the building, that's the building, won't rent the office. So she owned my office up in her house. So we-- anytime you want to get in the office, you got to see us. If you don't see us, you don't make it.

Peter Gottlieb: Had you ever been up North before you came here to Brad-- or when you went to Columbus? Had you ever been--

John T.: I've been there. I lived in New Jersey five years. Gottlieb: Oh, you did? John T.: Of course, we was in New Jersey. I was from Trenton. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: Yeah. Lived there five years.

Gottlieb: But then you had gone back to North Carolina?

John T.: Yeah, I went back to North Carolina in 1911. Gottlieb: Oh I see. John T.: And got married in 1912. Gottlieb: I see. John T.: And I stayed down there, lived down there until 24 till I come to-- Gottlieb: Well, you must have been pretty young when you moved up to, uh, New Jersey. John T.: I left New Jersey-- when I went to New Jersey. Let's see.

John T.: Going on 16 years old. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: When I left home.

Gottlieb: Were you working up there?

John T.: Yeah, I worked up there five years on a beatin' up there. Gottlieb: A beat? John T.: A big milk dairy farm. We had a farmer was working on that farm. He had 65 head of cows, 13 head of horses and a thousand chickens. Gottlieb: I see. John T.: He didn't live here. And that's where the old man paid us. Every week on his egg, he'd sell eggs, you know, that's what he paid us. And we had them cows with 5:00 in the morning and we got up and milking them cows because he had had that milk out on the road at 8:00 and milk them cows and run that milk through the cooler and separate the cream from the milk and all and have it cooled and sitting out on there. The man picked it up them cans at 8:00 in the morning. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Then we'd work until 4:00, 4:30, then we'd go get them cows, get them up and milk them and had them all big Holstein cows and 12 quart buckets of milk and one of them guys would run that bucket over and dump it and fill it up, putting it in there again for some big-- some milkin'. See? Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: I'm one of many, some guys [??]. I could milk 12 of them cows hour.

Gottlieb: And how did you find that job?

John T.: My. My aunt got it for me. I had an aunt up there, where she was, and she got me-- She got me the job. I stayed there five years.

Gottlieb: Well, what did you think of-- You had been up North once before you came to Braddock. But. But what did you think of Braddock? Just as a place to live. Just as a town.

John T.: I. I won't bother about the town. The money was why I lived. I was making good money here. And that's why I stayed there. Now, when I come here, I was here a month before my wife come. I made a couple of pays to send for her, you see. Then I sent for her and then she come here. Now South is clean. Everything is white. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Beautiful place, town. Everything is black and smoking. Everything here is rainy. And it rained 30 days straight for my wife in there. And she just couldn't stand it. The air was too heavy and everything. She just couldn't-- she die if she stayed here. Well, I'm making $7 and a half a day then. Good money. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: So she couldn't stay. She had to go back home. I said, well, now you go back home and I'm going to stay on and I'll be home in the fall. So you get along.

John T.: She thought if she went back, I'd come home. So I sent her back home. Drop me a word she got employed. Sister say I can make $3 a day, a bag packet [??], and I'm making seven and a half a day. I can't do it. I wouldn't go back. She said I'm gon' come and send me my fare. Have you done that, too? She come on back and.

John T.: She here 12 months and you couldn't have paid her to go back down there to live. She was crazy about here.

Gottlieb: Did you-- Did you begin renting a home when she stayed up here? Were you able to--

John T.: We-- we were on, on the North Braddock and Price Avenue. We were roomed by the man. He's a preacher, too. And he broke up house. He was going to Virginia school. Stayed here from. And he went down and stayed eight years. School ended. Then when he left, he got us another room with another lady. A nice old lady. She rented this room and we room with her about six months. Then we went to house keep. The house keep down South.

Gottlieb: Did you have any children? John T.: Who? Gottlieb: You and your wife? John T.: No.

John T.: We never had kids. No, we never had a kid. After I got myself settled good, and-- Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Got a little money here, then I raised me a house. We never have kids.

John T.: I started preaching around and people got acquainted and all. I done all right for myself. So I just stuck around, been here.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Can you tell me what kind of things you like to do? Just. Just for, uh, spare time? Kind of leisure things when you weren't working. Didn't have nothing else to do?

John T.: Most of the time, I kept my head stuck in books often. Gottlieb: Oh, yeah? John T.: Yeah. Because I was preaching and I was doin' all the studying I could. You see, almost my leisure time was studying. I, uh. Always liked it. That was my hobby, reading books. In church, everything in the church I was in, all the programs and everything in church. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: My whole life has been in church work. Gottlieb: Yeah.

John T.: And I know that pleasure is nothing, but. There's some contain of church. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Was there a certain church that the people, Black people from the South who were coming in to this part of the country, was there a certain church that they would join?

John T.: Yeah. No, no, no. Not no church particularly. Just sort of the same faith. That's sort of the Baptist church, we Missionary Baptist. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: But now the Church on New Hope on Sixth Street. She's a clerk of that church. Yeah, that's what we called the leading church in Braddock. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: So it was 600 members belonging to that church. Well, Reverend Duke's down on Talbot Avenue. He's the next biggest church. You got about 400 and some members down there. Gottlieb: Yeah. Uh huh. John T.: Then Willow Way Baptist Church, Reverend Taylor the pastor there. He ain't even been long been there. He got about 300 members. Then there, big Fourth Street Baptist Church in Rankin. They got about 500 members. Union Baptist. Third Street Baptist. He got about 300. And Tried Stone. They got 200 and some. And Swissvale Church. I'm assistant pastor now. We got 350 members. We's been in a new church now. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And wish you could see it. It's beautiful.

John T.: We goin' to try to move in at the third Sunday next month. Gottlieb: I see. John T.: And he's going right on with it.

Gottlieb: Just about Christmas time.

John T.: We try to get in by Christmas and everybody we know coming out looking at that church. Well, I was so happy to the old White man sold us a lot for the churches, four lots, big lots. And we bought them, paid $15,000 for them to the house on it. We rent the house there two years for $80 a month. And we took all that money and put it in our saving fund. Well, he were down there with me. He didn't want to sell it for nothing but a church. He always wanted to see a church on that corner. And so when we bought it and when we broke ground to build church, he were down there. And so some of the women are telling me Sunday, his son, he's an old man. His son brought him down to see the church. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: And said that the old man sit there and cried like a baby. He was so glad he lived to see a church on that corner. Gottlieb: My God. John T.: So when we go in marching our church, we going to have him sitting on the front seat. Gottlieb: Great.

John T.: Have them on the front seat and had him talking.

John T.: He want to see a church. He want to live to see a church on that corner. Gottlieb: That's a very fine thing.

John T.: Well, that's wonderful, isn't it? Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: So the fella, fella son say he just sit there and cry. Gottlieb: My God. John T.: He was so glad there was a church there.

Gottlieb: Was there, uh-- What were the Black churches in in Braddock or Rankin when you first came up in 1924? Were there just 1 or 2?

John T.: No. Let me see-- just. New Hope is a Baptist. Another little church only Willow Way then. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And that the only Baptist churchws in Braddock. But there's a Methodist, two Methodist churches and two Baptist churches. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. John T.: When I come here. But New Hope that church used to clerk, that was the leading church in Braddock.

Gottlieb: Did they-- did those churches welcome the, uh, migrants from the South? John T.: Oh, yeah, my Lord. Gottlieb: Because other people I've talked to have told me that they-- They had much trouble with the Black people who-- Who were native Pittsburghers, as they did with White people.

John T.: Oh, well, I'm going to tell you. Let me tell you something. The people that-- the Colored people that born and raised in Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh never amounted to a dime. The first home a Black man ever owned in Pennsylvania, a Southern man bought it. And that's what start the Colored buying homes. Fellas from South come up here. They made good money and they bought their own homes. And I think it was a man from Alabama. The Colored fella from Alabama bought the first house was bought in Pennsylvania. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: The Colored. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: And from that on, they start, they're buying their own homes. But in business, anything. Anytime you see a man mount anything in Pennsylvania, any kind of business, insurance, business, anything his background from South but the people raised and in this state, they just happy go lucky. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: They don't want nothing. But anytime you see a man that got a home or a car mount in his thing, check him. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: Background's from the South. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did those people who had been who were born and raised in Pennsylvania, do they look down on you? People from the South? John T.: No. Gottlieb: They didn't? John T.: You couldn't.

John T.: Cause they didn't have none. Couldn't look down on that. They didn't have nothing. And they come up here and we was made welcome. And it was very good coming in and joining the church, you know? But they know the Southern people was good workers in church, you see. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: And they made you welcome and all. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Then after you come in, they got settled, and the people from the South got buying homes. And after you buy a home and all you citizens then. And-- and they checked the

John T.: thing over and come to find out that everybody that mounted anything had a home, anything, they were Southern people. Come in from South and bought the homes and all. And a Colored man from the South, preacher, used to pastor that church down at New Hope. And the Deacon out there, chairman of deacon board, Norman [??] William was his name. He made him buy a home. He said, You live here and you should have a home. He, of course, him buy a home. But then if he bought a home in New Hope, well then several others bought homes, you see, that started the folks in New Hope buying home. But as long as they'd been here, none of 'em didn't have no home. And then they made him buy home and the rest of them got to buyin' a home. Then I-- when I built here, I rented the garage off of these boys and town real estate man, and I had rented off him five years of garage. So I went down to them. I didn't need the garage no more. I'd build me a home and my own garage. Said, Reverend, you build a home, man, he said, Well, I'm so happy for you.

John T.: He said a man is not a citizen til they own property. He say you own a home now, you can get anything you want. But you couldn't because.

John T.: You haven't got nothing til you can get up and go overnight. He says, there's nothing. Nobody can't do nothing bout it cause you didn't now. But you own a home. You own property now. Said, now the man not a good citizen til he own property and said, I'm so happy for you. Gottlieb: Yeah.

John T.: And anything I want. I went down. Well the bank there. I always come up here. I won't give money. I've never run short. I want a couple of hundred dollars, all I want.

John T.: And I had the picture of my house in my pocket. Do you own your own home now?

John T.: I guess I do. I got the deed for it and you don't get the deed till you pay for it. So I got deed for it. There only buy a dime on it [??].

John T.: And they asked what my property worth and I took the pictures and showed it to him. Said, that's my home. And he called the girl. Say, come here and look at this rich man's home. Is that your home? I said. But people-- come to find out, in talking to me, he was buying in Traverse City and he was doing it, what he was doin' to have his work done and he was doing his own plumbing work, fixing up his house, you see. I told him, well, I didn't have none of that to do. And I said, when I bought my place, I had money enough to save, to buy, til I pay til the house I was built, the manager ask me, didn't owe a dime. Keep my money owe [??].

John T.: If I hadn't have-- hadn't owned my own home, I couldn't have got it because you know that much bout it. Gottlieb: Right. John T.: Anytime you want money. Yeah, yeah.

John T.: That-- you see now, you take my wife, she can walk at, uh, Pennsylvania Bank in Braddock. Mellon Bank in Braddock. She can go down there any time she want. She go down this morning, tell them I want $200, got credit. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: My money is yours. That's showing on property now. You got good credit. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And you know that's worth more than money sometimes. Gottlieb: Yeah, that's right. John T.: Good credit. Gottlieb: That's right. John T.: Worth more than money. Anything she wants, she gets it. Anything I want now, when you get a certain age, you ages can't [??]. Now I own this home. This is mine. I can't borrow money now. I'm too old. If you pass certain age. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: You better keep you some cash money because. Gottlieb: Right. John T.: Ages can't. Now I borrowed, I borrowed a little money from a place in McKeesport and he needed money.

John T.: And if I owe you any money due today, I'm going to pay you-- due tomorrow. I'll pay you today or say a couple of days ahead of time. So I get the little money back. Every month I get to 11, get 3500, want. My money you want-- kept worrying me, one day. One day, one couple of hundred dollars. I didn't need it.

John T.: So I had to get it out of my pocket went away. All right, Reverend. Yes, sirree. You can get it as soon as we get the papers. And how old are you?

John T.: I told him my age. Oh, my God. Reverend, said I couldn't lend my daily money at that age. You're too old. I looked at him and laugh. I said, But I think for this day, a long time. Well, I said, I don't need it, said I don't need $1,000 a month. I said, You kept writing me. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And I just come over, just see see my credit good. If I need the money, I could get it. I said, if you want $1,000, I need-- I don't need no money. Next year he died. I'm still living. I'm still living. You young man, he died. I said, ain't all younger one-- die like the old. Just like the old. Now I got to get this Pittsburgh bank. Everything up there knows me. I get up there and I can get any kind of money I want in reason, you know? So I went up there one day and to the new girl in there, that pretty sexy [??] sounding name, says, got a bank account? Says, I don't know. I asked the girl standing next to me. Says, Yes. My God. Reverend John T.. Said, you wanted to start all over. Yes. Anything you want. You didn't get it. No, I said you was-- I had 'em laughing. I told girl you wouldn't have a job if not for me. Told 'em, are you getting my money? They had that thing tickled them so bad. Everything-- Ah, Reverend-- On and on. So it pays to live right in the community. It pay to deal with business folks.

John T.: It pays to be with Christian folks so you can have a good rest. Anybody can rest. Anyway I want. And we-- my wife stopped up there at the filling station the other day. Babe, where you stay the room for that [??]? Huh? Unidentified speaker: Hm? John T.: Well, day before yesterday, that fella come to the car and shook hands with us. He had know, knowed you, knowed me? Unidentified speaker: Yeah. John T.: But I didn't know the man. He used to live in Braddock. Unidentified speaker: He remembers me. John T.: And we'd forgot all about him. And he said, he kept waving and he come. You don't know me. I says, I know your face, but I can't call your name. And he told who you was, and he was so glad to see us and all, fine looking White fella. And he knowed her well and knowed me and told me I used to work in what I used to do, you know, and, Reverend, you look so well and you don't work no more. Told him, man, I've been on pension 18 years or more. He said, Well, you sure look well. He had a good talk. Well, you see, it pays to know people like that. Gottlieb: That's right. John T.: And anywhere, I go, yes, that's what I do. Oh, I say that door. Oh, well, I'm proud of my life and I'm proud I've lived in the community that I built up a rapport with everybody, White and Colored. Everybody knows me. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: And wherever I go, there's Reverend John T.