T., John, November 1 and 23, 1976, tape 2, side 1

John T.: Said, now Suzy said to you, the first Colored girl coming in, they gonna sneer at you. She said, I don't pay no attention to folks.

John T.: She said, I got mine. Said, You ain't got a girl in who can beat me doing nothing. So I got mine and know I got it. And a couple of weeks, after Suzy's, employed on ___[??], they're all going to lunch together and laughing and talking and having a big time. Suzy stay there two years. Went on to Washington. Went working for the government in the White House. Peter Gottlieb: My God. John T.: And last I heard from her. She got married. She's doing fine. Gottlieb: Good.

Peter Gottlieb: I interrupted you a while ago. You were telling me about this other job you had got. Making condensers or something like that?

John T.: Yeah. And they put this White fella in paint. And kept the girls, 6 six girls, three girls standing on each side of him. They had to wash them condensers and push them on to the barrel, right down to him. And they had a big hook. The ring goes around like that and he put them on it and paint them, you know, and run them out on the other end to the packers that they are drying. Then when he got out there to dry the six girls standing there, that paint 'em would pack them things, box them up you see. And the foreman told me, he said, now to the left there, them girls don't keep you busy. Let me know. We got to get this stuff out. All right, I walk in the second morning. First morning I walk in there.

John T.: Is that a bear-- elephant or what is that come in? They looking at me. I walked over to the chute. You come over and got this guy. Get him up there and put him on a buffer. I went home and got that-- my chute ready. I've got my paint. Started painting. Good morning, girls. Nobody didn't speak. Nobody. I went right on paint. I didn't say a word to them. Next morning, I mean, they couldn't keep me busy.

John T.: Next morning, I went in and I said to the foreman, I said, Sir, I haven't got enough help. I said, These girls can't keep me going. Well, all that was piecework, you see. The more you make, more you-- get. All right, man. He jumped up and went down there and got two more girls. Four girls on each side of me. He said, now, you's eight girls here. And if eight girls can't keep this man busy, I'm not putting nobody else down here. I'm going to fire all eight of you and hire eight more that can keep him busy. Man, them girls scuffled. Third morning I went in, Good morning. One of them said good morning. But how-- is it paint? Well, at 10:00 o'clock, one of them said to me, Can you make out on this job? I said I'd make out on any job I go on. Say, you's nice painter. That other fella can't us for the paint all the time [??]. Yeah. This is a tall girl from Duquesne. He does a

John T.: whitest turn, white hair, nice looking girl, painter. He come round here looking at me paint. Later, he ain't got much sense of the authority here, let another Colored man take a job offer. I let only that he did. That was so-- [laughs] I didn't know what to do. So foreman said to me, said John T., Now he's going to get used to you. You'll see most anything. Don't say nothing to him. I said, Think of one thing you got in your wallet. That's payday. That's just what my check. Says, I got a woman sitting at the house. My wife, I'm lawfully married to look better than anything in you to me. So I just want my money, that's all. For your girls can turn. I don't give a.

John T.: Well, I know why they switch me and I tell them put me night time at first. But the girl wouldn't be there, you know, paint at night. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: So this guy couldn't paint. They brought me back daylight. White fella didn't told me what had happened. Don't tell anybody but they bring you back daylight because that fella can't paint. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: So how many that he must have tell him? Says, how about coming back daylight. I said, what's a matter? Don't my work suit you? Said, yeah, that's why we gonna bring you back daylight. So you go home and come out in the morning. 7:00. I lit on the dome. I come on the next morning. 7:00. Ran all the way.

John T.: So after the all-- 'fore the thing was over, them girls got to laughing and talking. That I wasn't there three weeks paying their fair, put on no Colored. I was the only Colored man up there and I want Colored. It'd be all White there and I stayed on that job there about two years. Then they went out and they headed to Massachusetts. They wanted me to go with them, but I wouldn't go because I just started the housekeeping and I. I wouldn't go with them. I went back on the third floor, but I didn't have no trouble. And they all got along good. The last girl was laid off there. The workers caved in, two of them, one of them named Annie Lacey, another girl from Duquesne. Me and them was the only one that. So. Annie kept hearing me talk about my wife. She said, You must have a good wife. I said, I do.

John T.: She says, I'm coming over to see your wife. All right. One night we were eating. Someone rang the doorbell.

John T.: I went to the door, Annie's all dressed up. She walk in, say, Mrs. John T., I know you're here. John talk so much about you. I know you. Said, Come on in, sit down and eat the supper with us. She there 10:00. After that Annie was all the time at my house and say she was scared of Colored folk because I dated with some of the Colored folks. They knew they'd kill you. I said White folk in, never even think, White folk kill you [??]. Said, anybody kill. Married man, now. Colored boys, they won't kill you quicker than nobody else. So Annie all wrong. And me and Annie got, oh, we was right hand buddies. She got married a fella. Ben Moore. She's the last one, man. And then I give her a nice wedding present, and she got married. She's a nice girl.

Gottlieb: So you met quite a bit of prejudice and discrimination against Black people when you first came up here?

John T.: Yeah, well, wait a minute. If you Colored, every man that you see that mount anything in life or got anything in life, he got it the hard way. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Yeah. When I was born in the world 83 years ago, two big strikes against me because I was Black. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: They didn't have-- you numbers, you, only three balls, another strike and I was out. Against me. Well, I know that. And all Colored people know that. You know, if you was a Black man, you going to pay for being Black in this because everything against you. Now you look at them boys, did you read in the paper where they-- here that fella that Pete Rose. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Willie Stargell do that thing. They wouldn't give it to him. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: You look at this other boy and he lacked one home run tying Babe Ruth. Gottlieb: Yeah. Hank Aaron. John T.: Yeah. Hank Aaron. Well, he didn't want him to have it. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: He didn't get it. Well, he don't care because he's making $200,000 a year. Well, now he will get it because he got a couple of more years to play, if he want. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: Then he ain't got nothing to do now. I was reading the paper where he just signed his name for different things.

John T.: $100,000. $200,000. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Well he don't want him that kind of-- Gottlieb: Sure. John T.: Because he's a Black man. That's right. If he's a White man, it'd be all right. But they don't want a Black man. Look at this fella. Willie Mays. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Willie Mays can't go. He can't drive through New Jersey, state of New Jersey. Gottlieb: Why not? John T.: Because he's a Black man making all that money. Be, any time he goes through New Jersey, he, they gon' hit him. And only way he can get over there, he got to get him a plane, go. He can't drive through New Jersey. The rest of them, every time he wanted to, or $100,000 or he make $160,000 a year. And he's a Black man. They don't want to 'em makin' that kind of money. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Now, Willie Stargell going to be the next one. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: He going to break-- break that boy's record, Babe Ruth and all them because he got seven, eight more years to play and he gets 40 and 50 home runs a year. You know, he can break all them records and he doing everything he can. He did and had it, but they won't pitch to him.

John T.: They will put him on or try to make him pop it up or something. And if they get somebody on base, they ain't going to put up Will up there, they put him up there, they can walk him, throw him poor balls. They ain't gonna let go. He know he need a home run. It's a Black man. He don't want him to do it. They don't want him with that money. I read in the paper I heard on tell, Mike Devine, a woman asked him why were the-- all the stars Negroes? They never said nothing about the White boys. What are you doing now? And he ain't looking Colored. He looking ballplayers and hung up on her. Wouldn't talk to her. Say they ain't looking colors, they looking ballplayers. They looking for it. Gottlieb: That's right. John T.: But he don't want him to do it. He don't want him to get down for it because the hundred years they've been playing ball, Negroes couldn't get in the game. Gottlieb: That's right. John T.: Well, now, what little time he's in there, he done beat 'em good and he getting on of all the stars, he just kill them. You can't take it.

Gottlieb: Do you remember when they used to have the Black ball teams. John T.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Do you-- did you used to go out and watch the games ever?

John T.: Yeah. When they had the Homestead Grays. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: They were the best team in the country. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Well, all the White people said if they were White, they want to be in there. It'd be the best leagues in the country. And all the White would go to see them because there's a good ballplayer. Well. The fellow on that team, Jess Owens. He hit the longest ball over his head.

Gottlieb: You mean Josh Gibson?

John T.: No, no, no. The fellow there, a little short fellow. Dark fellow named Jess Owens. On the Homestead Grays. He hit the ball over 500, over 500ft. They said to put a man on train to go to a higher ground, find the ball. Follow the ball over the head and he-- Well, now just one thing you can't do. They, you different in color. White. Don't care how hot it is, hotter the weather is, the better Black man do anything you want to do. Now I can't stand cold. Much cold as you can. You freeze me to death, but I'll melt you to death in summertime. You know the cause of it? Gottlieb: Why? John T.: Right in here. Gottlieb: Oh, really? John T.: I got a flat nose. You got a sharp nose, and you can't get the breeze. [laughs]You can't. You can't breathe much air outta that. Gottlieb: Do you believe that? John T.: I know it.

Gottlieb: Well, Black people doing fine up in Northern states now.

John T.: Yeah, they doing fine. Gottlieb: Sure. John T.: But you can freeze me. You can stand more cold weather than I can stand. Gottlieb: I don't believe that. John T.: Yes. Yes, you can, brother, don't you let nobody tell you no different. You can stand more cold weather, but you let the sun get up there to eight and nine and 100. I'll beat you to it. We don't get right until weather get hot. And I was working down here planting. When they build that other building down there, we come out one day, lunchtime, 12:00, this building, that building color fellow that hothouse [??]. Painters are hot. Them guys with sweaters running out the shoes just like you dippin' in the river and they was climbing up and down there with them ain't that hot and they was singing. And one fellow, everybody listen to the man. He was singing tenor. You see, that guy could sing. Good God. And one of the vice presidents come out, come out of his school building. Then he said I'll be damned.

John T.: He said, I got so much money, I can't sleep at night, more money than I want to spend and see them fellows just are selected, dip them in the creek and they just a happy lot. And I don't know why the hell is he just happy like-- them fellows had got hot and sweaty and you just right to work. He's getting a kick out that thing there. Yeah, we. I'll beat you in hot weather, but you can beat me in cold. You can take more cold weather. That's just the nature.

Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Uh. Were you living in a boarding house when you first-- Just for the first, uh, the bit of time that you lived in Braddock. Did you stay in a boarding house?

John T.: No, I didn't stay in a boarding house. I lived around on Corry Avenue when I first come here. But to the boarding house when I first come and gone on down that there steel mill, when they'd go get them fellows from South, bring them here you see. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: They'd, uh, put them in the boarding house there. Gottlieb: Right. John T.: Yeah. But I didn't when I come here.

Gottlieb: Did you stay with a family or--

John T.: Yeah, I stayed with a family.

John T.: That-- it was pretty much going out of style then because folks was coming here then they was renting houses and rooming with people. Gottlieb: I see. John T.: When I come at home. Back when they first started integrating them here, they put them all down in the bunkhouses. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Called bunkhouses. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Fit 'em all. They won't lie with it on the street because you'd walk down Tightwood [??] Avenue then and next to that mill. Pan at 'em women [??]. Go piss out on the piss pot. Gottlieb: Really? John T.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Where-- was this in Braddock? John T.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Down there by Edgar Thompson? John T.: Yeah.

John T.: Yeah. Them fellas cut 'em off down there. So piss out on anything. And well, it got so bad that company gave them guns. Tell them take care of herself. Them guys. But one of them got together one day and tied red hankies around the neck. That meant blood. And they went up Abbott Avenue and tore it up. That broke that up so they could walk. But now if you to go over to Westinghouse, you couldn't walk along the street. And it wasn't as though I had anything of their own. You walk on there and you

John T.: couldn't-- when you first started them in there, they started them out there and they're doing janitor work there in the office, you see. But they couldn't let them go in the shop because they stole things out of the shop. Finally they got them working out in the shop and taking care of the laboratory. But they didn't give no for, that they had to go to the laboratory and right back and. They kept getting a little better and a little better. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: But we had a hard time when we first-- Colored first started coming here. We had that everywhere you go after you leave the Southern states and we headed down there. Any places you could go to any place and you better not look in. Now you go in a store with White people in there. If you was next.

John T.: Wouldn't wait on you. Wait on all the White people and. What you want, nigger. Tell 'em what you want. You want a hat, you try on a hat and don't like it, it doesn't fit you. If you put it on your head, you bought it.

Gottlieb: Because they wouldn't keep it if you put it--

John T.: No, if you didn't put it on your head, you had-- You paid for that hat. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: You paid for the hat. Now, I went-- you go

John T.: in the store, you stand to the side. You go to the drugstore, anything you stand aside till they wait on all the White people. Well then you want to catch a train that goes somewhere they had ticket, the ticket room here for you, at this one. And all that White people. Man, sometime no fire, nothing in there. Just a nasty-- wait all the White folks. Give them a ticket and everything and they come to you sometime train and made station blow come and you ain't got your ticket yet.

John T.: Come there. Where you going there? He doesn't want to sit in the place. You see.

John T.: You taking the scramble, trying to catch the train. Then the next is baggage car. Mail on that-- part of that was for the Colored, you see. So we had to put you up next to all that smoke and stuff. You get it. You sitting up there, sometime, you stand up on room enough and then sit down and you stand in that packed like sardines. Look through the door there and see plenty of seats. And that White people there, two feet tall, sittin' like _____[??]. Last time I went home for last time, I rode a train. I come in from Henderson, North Carolina. I change in Richmond like a Richmond. Police stand on this side and get big police Colored on that side. Come out there.

John T.: Go this way. Colored fella's tellin people keep straight, White man tell all the White people, Go this way. Go over there, get on there.

John T.: Get on that train. And honest to God, when I squeeze in there, you couldn't move. Couldn't pull down because you couldn't move. Just packed in. I got off in Washington to catch a train for Pittsburgh. Just walk on through the gate, hand the man my ticket, he stamp it. I said,

John T.: Well, if I live a thousand years, I'll never go and train no more. I got me a car. And then we always drove down, you know.

John T.: And then after I got to driving down, I seen the places you go on the highway, they wouldn't sell you gas. Couldn't get no gas. Okay, now, see, the thing is washroom like you got now, sometime we pick up the bushes, toilet, everything.

John T.: Always kept me a five gallon can in my car full of gas so I stop and they wouldn't sell me gas. I'd always keep a five gallon can. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: So I pull the gas and I get, my tank get about half empty. I'm trying to get it filled up again.

John T.: But if it didn't let me down and I had five more gallons, I could keep going till I could get to a place that would sell my gas. The last time I drove down there, I stopped at a place down in Virginia. The old man, he sold me the gas and they had some good looking watermelons there. Half watermelons, you know, look good. And I said, Hey, you sell your watermelon. Ask him could I buy a half of a watermelon. Oh, yeah, I bought it. Way up and put. This next sittin' up there. no tables sittin' up there. A tree-- was a table up there on that tree, go up there and eat it up there. Yeah. Me and my wife.

John T.: Went up there and eat as much watermelon as we want. I went on back down.

John T.: Well, you won, Melvill. Nice. Appreciate it. Thank you so much.

John T.: He said, when you come back, stop back. Yes, sir. Thank you. We went on home. Then when I heard they had broke this thing down, I couldn't believe it. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: Because you couldn't go in and buy nothing. And if you stop in the night, in the time one of them big places want a cup of coffee or something, you'd ask the man over there the time, can you get a cup of coffee and go round to the back door.

Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Around the back door. Go knock on that door then.

John T.: So the last time I went down. They broke the thing down and you could go anywhere you want. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: It seems a lot different to you now, huh?

John T.: I went. I went in there and I was scared to death. I seen Colored sittin' all around there with the White. I didn't know whether to sit down there or not, know? Finally, I sit down, we eat.

John T.: When I got in Henderson. Was a hotel there. Right across the street there from the station. Where all the big shots can get off the train, walk right cross the road and red capped boys, you know, get that big and things get so you get off and go by there. Don't you walk slow. You walk by there as fast as you could. So I went to Henderson. My sister in law was talking to the man, you talking about had it and broke it down into.

John T.: The Colored girl had finish high school. White school, high school. And she finished with the highest honors in school. I said, Oh, man, you lying? Yes. There's no different now.

John T.: You say, you know that hotel where you couldn't walk by. You can go in there now, front row, go to bed, eat, drink.

John T.: I say you lyin' now, I know you lie. She said alright. Just wait till I change clothes. I'll get my hair done. You going to go to bed, rest, right, you're on. She said they call the men and they broke the thing down and the manager called them all together and told them. He said, From now on, no difference. And said the first time either one of you making a difference, a Black man walking in, I'm gonna fire you, this way it all depends, there's no difference. Folks is just folks. He says, If you make any difference when these folks coming in here, I'll fire. Said you can go in, fancy them White girls wait on you and no different. Gottlieb: Hm. John T.: So nice. Gottlieb: Yeah.

John T.: So the next day we went up and ate down there. But you he just thought we were joking me. Gottlieb: My God. John T.: And mother told me. Get the sauce. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: It was broke down like that. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And I said, Well, what's going to happen? So I went on down there to the station and I pulled up the station and I was driving a 37 Buick.

John T.: Had thing all potted and ______[??].

John T.: Right across the street went to the filling station. I parked my car on the other side. I went down to see him sell the pack because I hadn't seen him sell the pack in a long time. I parked my car and when I come back I-- riverbed [??]. He put gas in the car. And I was dressed, I had on my suit coat, striped pants and blue coat. Black pants. And this guy, I got him to fill it up.

John T.: He said, you's a minister. I said, Yes, I am. Said, I've seen you in that car across there. I told them my men there was a minister getting out that car. He says, Where are you from?

John T.: I said, I'm from Pittsburgh. Said, I'm just visiting down here.

John T.: I married a girl from Henderson and my wife at home here. You said you met a girl from Henderson. Yeah. 1912. My god, I wasn't even born then. And another pretty Colored breed. Tell them this is a man from Pittsburgh, Minister. He married a girl from here. So I told him who I married. He said yes, I know that people well, practically had the biggest tailor in town. Yeah, I married his sister. We had a good talk. It had so much difference there. Say, Reverend, come back, stop in to see us.

John T.: Says, thank you. And no different. A lot of two, three White people, old farmers, you know, coming, bringing tobacco and everything. And he made me acquainted with them. And he married a girl from Henderson now. Gottlieb: Yeah.

John T.: I said, Well, Henderson, I've got to behavin' now. See, I don't got to be hidden now.

Gottlieb: I wanted to go back a little bit and ask you if when you first were living in Braddock and around this area, did you know a man who used to be employed down at the Edgar Thompson Mill by the steel company named, by name of Earl Johnson?

John T.: Yeah. He was the head of the ball team.

Gottlieb: The head of the Homestead Grays?

John T.: No, he had a team in Braddock. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. John T.: Earl Johnson? Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Yeah, I know Earl Johnson.

Gottlieb: Did he-- But he had some position with the mill, too. John T.: Yeah. Yeah. Gottlieb: Can you tell me about the kind of work he would do?

John T.: He was. I think he was one of the-- the guys that took care of that shack. When they bring them in. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: He was one of them. And him and another old man. Let me see. What was his name? Wheeler. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: Old Man Wheeler. He the head man of that when they bring them fellas in. He seen that? Him and, him, and uh. Johnson in there. Johnson the man looking out for the Colored people, you know, trying to see that they were treated right and all.

Gottlieb: Was he any kind of leader of Black people on Braddock? Did people look to him for some kind of leadership?

John T.: No. No more than just in the mill. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: You see, but what what got this thing going in Braddock-- now they organized political, pacific and literal [??] club. But the Democrats organized it. And fellow Goodman, he was the head of that, you know.

Gottlieb: He was a Black man?

John T.: Yeah. Working for politics, you know. And they organized the club. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And they had a strong club in Braddock. And whoever want to get in, you know, they had to kind of go along with that club, you see? Gottlieb: Yeah. Because they're so strong. And they had organized all the Colored people together and we was pulling for whatever Goodman said or whatever man they thought was the best for us. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: That who you vote for you see. And they got so they would vote them all the time and, and they had to go along with us down there to try to get in office. That's what started that. And then they started giving us pretty good jobs, you see. And we finally got a Colored fella on to the police, you see. But then after we were getting places, then you got to tell this fella on police and whatever he want. But he got along with us and-- Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: He didn't anything-- of Colored fella get arrested or anything to get him to talk for him, you see? Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: And that's where that got started.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Now, that was a, uh, Democratic club. John T.: Yeah.

John T.: Democrats started that first. [tape ends]