T., John, November 1 and 23, 1976, tape 1, side 2

John T.: Reverend-- one night. Called me, Reverend, you sleepin'? I said, No, I'm not sleeping. Said I don't blame you. Said I got a sister in Pennsylvania, Rankin, Pennsylvania and, said if we could get there, I knows we could get work. Westinghouse. Steel mills, everything. He said, my sister owns a big boardinghouse and we can stay there.

John T.: I said, now, do you think we can get work where we go? Said, I know. Know we can get work. So I paid his way. Got my ticket, had $2.50 left. All I had. Got there in Rankin.

John T.: 9:00 o'clock at night. Went to his sister, and her sister was renting a room by the side of this... And she's thinking, go to a party. And all I hear brad roof [??] Say, say, she, I'll get a place for you all to stay and owe nothing. Another man from Braddock. They all come from the same place, from Turin [??], you know. And he said, you guys can stay with me tonight. I said, my friend, I don't know nobody.

John T.: And I'd be glad to-- if you would let us spend the night with you. He brought from Rankin to Braddock. Went home to his house and stayed there all night. He's an old bastard he doesn't mind. Next morning he got up and he was--

John T.: Going back to his sister's for breakfast. We get up, there's an old beer garden there, moonshine joint. He went on there on Sixth Street. We go in there and get us a shot, he whispered and say, He's a minister. He said, 'Scuse me, Reverend. I didn't know you's a preacher. Said, ________[??] I only let people in, certain, no sir. So I stayed outside. They went in and got him a shot. Went on back to his sister's, drank.

John T.: I come in with him and set down there. Set a pint of liquor on the table. He's a preacher. said, oh, Reverend Pierce [??]-- I thought you was all round like my brother, said, you can have a seat at my bedroom. I said, thank you, ma'am. And I went on that bed. Sit down. And.

John T.: You know, you might not have faith in God like I do. I got up there and shut that door and I got on my knees and I prayed and asked the Lord, if you make a way for me then I go to work. I'll spend my life in your cause. You call me to preach. And if you fix a way that I can prepare myself, I'll preach for you til I die. I got up on my knees and went on and eat my breakfast. The woman just had breakfast laid out. I said, Madam, will you fix me a lunch, please?

John T.: Say you got a job? I said be one waiting for me when I get where I'm going. I got on that 55 car and went just as straight to the Westinghouse as I ever did. Straight to employment office. Many men in there. 80 some men standing in line. Men, I was only Colored in the line. Well we were in the rear.

John T.: And they turned them down like that. They hired one-- one White fellow. Machinist. Didn't need no help.

John T.: And I got close to the man made that door, he looked and saw me and he stand aside. I stepped aside, man. I stand up there and I seen him turn them folks down like that. I know it was no chance for me. And I was praying.

John T.: I just believe that I was going to work. So I walked up to the desk. He looked at me. He says, What do you want? I says, I want to go to work this morning. That man sit there, tappin' on his desk just like that. Says, I don't need no labor. Says, I'm not particular about labor. Can you write to him? Tell him yeah, I can write. He's tappin' on his desk [??] Man. I was praying all the time.

John T.: Lord, don't let him say no. He said, I'm gonna give you a good job. If you good and stick with it you make good. Says, I never work nowhere in my life with people didn't like me. He signed me up as a storeroom keeper. I'm the first Black man there that was storeroom keeper in the Westinghouse. So he signed me up and put the boy in front of me and gave me the land and the letter. Then I had to go from there to the relief. I had to go through the relief be examined. 2:30 before I got to the job.

John T.: Finally, he had me through the relief and examined and everything, getting me on to the job. He hand the man the letter. You been examined [??] here yet? Yes, said, yes, sir. Shook his head. Oh, I'll show you the job. Went on down, Mr. Roman.

John T.: Said now we haven't had nobody down here for a while. Told me how he wanted everything done. Showed me the little desk over there and the box of cards. Say, here's your card.

John T.: You're responsible for everything going into the storeroom. All right.

John T.: And make the mark and how to line the stuff up. Different bend. He say you like to work overtime? Say yes, I like to make every minute I can. Stay here, pass on the boat where you work till 7:30. All right. I went to work.

John T.: He come down, brought different tools, you know. Well, it's still around, man. I'm the man. You the man. I'm the man. Hopefully, yeah.

John T.: Good to see what you do. Put these little cards here then I get his number and go get it to him. So every night for three nights that pass on the boat, work the same thing. But I didn't see the foreman. The fourth day he come down around. Said, Well, how are you making it?

John T.: I said, I hope I'm doing all right. He said, This place hasn't looked like this in 12 months. Said you gonna make me a good hanging [??] Stick there. I'll give you a better job. Said, Thank you, sir.

John T.: Man, I scramble at that place. You know, I wasn't there about three weeks. He come down there one morning, say John T.? I said, Yes, sir. Says, I want you on the third floor. Keep a little better job. $0.03 more an hour. Thank you, sir. Went in and got my coat and heading for on up there. Told me where to hang my coat, showed my locker and everything.

John T.: I bet you I didn't do a hour work during the day. Just messing around. He liked me in this little thing.

John T.: Get John T. doin' from here, sir. And I was doing things in there. They hadn't been but two, three Colored fellas that were working there. So when the White fellas heard me, said to say, Why did you get this job? Said, you know, Colored folk ain't never done nothing like it. Did only what the man tell me to do.

John T.: And everything he wanted done, John T., you think you can do something for me? Yes, sir. Like the way I do it. So they had a Hunky fella there. He was a painter. He was bored with his peacetime work. Fellow's making 13, $14 a day. There was big money then, and. He just got married. He'd get drunk and lay out sometime two days a week drunk. Well.

John T.: We had-- they had them, makin' them big foam lighters in and small ones. 300 them things a month. He had to get out and took them at night to get that stuff ready. Then we didn't get that stuff right on the third floor, that would hold up 30 minutes on the second floor. But we had to get that stuff down there that day for them to work tomorrow. You see, they had to get that load out. So they had another big Colored fella there, Charlie Bowman. He always washed his stuff, you know, and get it ready for the fella to paint. And he painted, trying to learn him how to paint.

John T.: And he painted-- put paint too heavy into the run, inspector saw he did that. Do that work all over again. So he was over there one day. He said the foreman was trying to paint. 'Cause the next thing you know, I was sweeping up there. Say, tell me, say are you the handyman John T.? Says that I'm bored up here. Don't you-- Do you think you can paint?

John T.: I says anything any other men do in this world, I'll do it. I got brains like anybody else. All the thing I need is the same. I'll do it. They taught me how to paint some of that stuff.

John T.: I put, then you had to bake that stuff. Three hours. But the coat down on it and pull it out and let it cool and put the second coat on. Make it look like a brand new car when you got through with it. I painted that and pulled that truck out and I couldn't see what the heck I was doing and I could do it because he didn't know how to set it and time it and all, and I pull it out. Inspector come over and looked at it.

John T.: He said, My God, this is a better painter than the one you had. Passed every bit of it. Just perfect. And. And he's off, you go over there and paint. I see if you get that job. All right. Next day, I get layers, any layers in one day that time. And that foreman come in, I'm doin' all that paint. Say, what are you doing over here? Some paint. I'm here. All righty. I went on and got my broom messing around there. Sweeping. Couple of weeks, I went in there and stay three days. Boss come over, say John T., say yes sir, boss said want you on that job. And if I don't ever tell you to come off, don't come off. All right, sir. I took my own coat and hat and walked over to the Hunky's locker and hung it. I could have this locker. I start there, paint there. It tickled them. The Hunky come in. Well, I'm here. I said I'm here too. We all are here this morning. I said, The foreman told me to come on this job, and if he didn't ever tell me to come off, not to come off. I said, You better go to the office, see foreman. Man, he fluted off.

John T.: What do you mean? Putting that Colored man on my job? I didn't know you had a job. I mean, for him to stay on it. Says, I got to get this work done and he'll stay here and get it out. If you want to broom for 40 some an hour, get your broom. If not, say, have it right your time. He just got married and we didn't get furniture and all, they owerd $11,000. He had to get him a broom. Man was out over there. All that peacetime work, you see, and working the 7:30 and 8:00 at night, man, I was making all kinds of money. And he didn't speak to me too much. Sweepin all around. He talk to the other fellas. One man cleanin' the stuff. So he told him one day he was mad about it-- I wasn't payin' no attention to him. He wouldn't take nobody's job. He wouldn't be a nigger. You know, come to me what he was talking about. Then it look like the world got back. And I run to him and grabbed him. Was holding and getting my knife. I was gonna kill that fella. Man, he was kicking his coffin. So Charlie grabbed me. Well, don't-- Don't-- Don't you cut that man. Don't you cut that man. Said, he's gonna bleed for me. And downstairs when I thought the foreman was going on. He was down on the second floor. He took us down there. Stayed down there. And he come back and he went up on the other end of it.

John T.: I've been working. Til 20 minutes. The foreman come up. Office sittin' in the middle of the house. I've been on the office sitting at his desk like he was right. Another fella, White fellow over there. He's a whining homages. And he went over there where he was and he was talking and I heard him talking. Asked me what happened.

John T.: He said, That fellow don't bother nobody. He best me and you hit him. And that fella been pickin' at him ever since he put him on that job. That man, foreman, man, he come on around and finally got down where I was. How you doing? I'm doing all right, I hope. Yeah. You work with me tonight? Thank you, sir. Well, I ain't got but a few good men. What's any matter with you and Tom? Ain't nothin' matter with me. I said, Didn't you put me on this job? You tell me to come on in. 'Cause he asked what they had. Didn't you tell me to stay til you take me off? Yeah. Say, you ain't told me come off yet. No, I ain't told you come off. I don't mean for you to come off. I told him what Tom said to me.

John T.: And I said I was gonna cut his head off. And I said, If Tom ever bother me again, I'm going to kill him. You better tell him something. Hey, Tom, come down here. You see this man? If you ever look at him straight again, you goes out of here. Say, I put him on this job and he's going to stay on. And if you don't want to work around him, get out of here. Says, if I ever hear another word you say to him, you's a fired man. Been on back up there then and stayed put. But month later Tom left. Last I hear from Tom is in Detroit. His wife done left him. Whatever comin, poor fella. And I stayed there. Then we had the all peacetime work there. Then they bring, brought your money round to you. Every payday, cops come round. The main policeman. Two policemen paid the men, bring the money.

John T.: So they held my money up and held Boehmer's money up. Well, now we worked 7:30 at the time and half. And you work overtime. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And sometimes we'd work till 10:00. The foreman never come to pay. He wouldn't stay there. General foreman tell him, Go head home. Don't bother them fellas. They know how to work. They. We make our time. We get our work out and write our own pay. Come on home. Well, one day I had one pay. I had $118.50. That was money. They held it up. I had to go to the employment office to get my money, paymaster. The next pay. He held it up again, so we went down. And I said, What's the matter with my pay? What do you fellas do to make that kind of money? I said we're not sleeping on no feather bed, Fred, says we was working for it. I said, Now let me tell you one thing, mister. The next time I come down here for my money, said, I'm gonna break your neck. I said, They got a timekeeper up there. She keeps time and she turns it in. Only thing you got to do is make up that payroll and give me my money. And I said, if I come down here again to see why you held my money up, I'm going to drag you up there and beat your brains out. I said, I stay in here and work from 7:00 in the morning till 9:10 at night, you's in the bed sleep. I said, I'm working for my money. And I said, Don't you play with my money, man? You done the wrong thing when you're playing with my money. He never held it up no more. I said, Now he got timekeepers up there. Take care of all the time and all. You said she make that time up and send it in. Or you got to put in an envelope and give it to me. I said, don't, don't, don't, don't play with my money. I said, You done jump the wrong man, now. He didn't hold my money up no more.

Peter Gottlieb: Did that man think you'd been cheating on your time or something?

John T.: I don't know. I don't see how he could have thought it because they got to have a timekeeper there. And she made up the time and all. Didn't hold up nobody else's money. Well, why would they hold up mine?

Gottlieb: Just prejudice against you. Because you were a Black man.

John T.: Yeah, that was all it was. Tell him I'mma break your neck, you play with my money. So I told the foreman about it, and he called him up on it and told him. Said we got timekeepers here. Says all you got to do to make up your payroll and pay these folks the money. You see, that man worked for every penny. He make it. He works for it and work hard for it. He never give me no more trouble about my money. I was going to get him right good. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: But I know he done it because it never was-- No Colored fellas in there made that kind of money. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And he want to know how did they make it. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: It was none of his business how we made it. Just so he got the time. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: The timekeepers, they had to keep time. Regardless of how they made $500. I made it honest. Told me he didn't hold it up. He didn't give me no more trouble. I stayed on that job then. Until they got on the fourth floor. They had condensers.

John T.: And they had-- had to get out 1900 things a day. That was the load they had to get out.

John T.: Besides of that. But that's they can put that much out. Well, they put-- there's 400 girls, boys, to 20 boys and 400 girls on that floor, on the fourth floor, that thing going. And put a White fella there painting and. Getting the load ready, you know. We're trying to get set up now and get going again. And bless God he couldn't paint. So did-- [laughs]

Gottlieb: Did they have many other Black people working there when you started to work?

John T.: [simultaneous talking] Started there? Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: No, not too many. Gottlieb: Uh huh. John T.: They had a few out in there in the shop then in the toilet doing janitor work? Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And then. Then they had fellows going through with the little carts on material handling. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: And materials stay all the White fellows away. But then they had a few fellows on trucks. Some, like the trucks running them, like the trucks carrying material from one building to the other. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: But that's all they had. And they had. There was ten guys in the dining room. Waiters. Gottlieb: I see. John T.: Do-- we go there on it. On the 11th floor, nail [??] building, that's where we had our crystal dining room, 250 men. Them big shots and all that and they had 12 fellows there waiting tables. They'd go up there 11:00, get dressed for dining room and wait tables til 2. Them all the Colored fellows was in there. Then after the war started, I'm the man that got there, broke it and put the Colored girl-- Colored women in the place, all the Colored women in there. Oh, and I went to the company where we had organized the union, then. I went to the company and asked them, I said, Now these Colored boys have got to go to the army. And they got to stand side by side with these White fellows and die for this country. And I says, Why not these Colored girls can't get a job in here and stand side by side with these White girls and make materials to defend this country, says. So we got a union here now.

John T.: He says, All right, with us, we could hire them with the union. So I went to the union and the union said, Yes, that's what the union's for. We protect them. I say, you guys are passing the buck on me now. So I got the company and union together, with the union took me back. I said, n ow if I bring some Colored girls down here and put their application in will you hire them? Say, Yeah, we'll hire them. Union said we'll fight, all right. Got right up, got in my car and went on to Rankin and got seven girls. Put them on my car, get them on down there and had them right on that employment office. Police standing there, sayin', where are you going? I said, I'm going employment office, put these girls' application in. Says, Colored girls? Hmm, never been no Nigger women in here and never will be none. I said,I'm going to bring these right by you and going to put them to work, buddy. Get them on the-- put their application in. Next day, I came down seven more. Every day. I came a load down there. The next week they call one. Grace Cole was the name. She the first one went in. So, I head on down there and he asked him, could I walk in on, get 'em right on up to the employment office. There's a woman doing the hiring for the girl that I got up here. Yeah, that's same one wrote her up.

John T.: Say, you ought to be proud of Reverend John T., that you got somebody in your race can help you. You ought to be proud because you're the first Colored girl that went to work in the Westinghouse. I say, yeah. So they put her on.

John T.: And less than a month, had 64 of them in there. Well, then they wanted some matrons, Colored matrons. Take care of the ladies down, you know. Put them in.

John T.: I said getting kind of good to me then, you know, I said, Well, now you had a new man, new manager that I went to him. I said, Now, according to the percentage, I said, We haven't got enough Colored fellas in here. And he takes a rep and I checked over since I've been here and we could use some more Colored. You ain't going to help put 50 more of them things in. 50 more of them in. Well, in the Colored, the White girls, they got that worried. Didn't want to use the same washroom. Separate washroom. So man told 'em, all of you don't want to go to same washroom,

John T.: Get your time. Said everybody working here go in the same workroom. If you don't want to go where those Colored girls is, says, we'll fire you and get somebody else. There's plenty girls are there waiting for your job, so they kill that too. So I said to myself, Now this thing, you made it good to me now. I'm going to put a Colored girl in their office. Started at the union for, well I put a Colored girl in here. I do for it's only me [??]. You put one in, right? So he called up and called me in one day and said, Now we got a lot of work here to do. I've got to have a typist, but you've got to make so many, type so many words a minute because they's piled up in our way. I tell 32 down there. I says, a girl from Homestead. That girl would have made it. She made the test, all right. But they told me what kind of girl they wanted. A nice looking girl, you know? Beautiful. She made it, but she didn't look to suit him. Gottlieb: Yeah. John T.: I know what it was. So I hear Tucker wanted in home with Suzy Reed. I called her, and she come out. I said, Suzy, ought to be somebody in my race to take care of that job. And I said, I'm going to try you. And if you don't make it, I ain't trying nobody. Well, the White girls had found it out that I was trying to get a Colored girl in there, and they didn't-- they all puttin' it in for the job. And they said, Now he told me what was up and said, Now, who ever made the grade get the job regardless of the color, and had Suzy down there. Suzy said, Don't be uneasy about me. I'll make it anywhere in the United States. Old country, anywhere. I can pass the test. So I get here down there in woman looked at her. A nice looking girl, and she put on that machine and--

John T.: Held a watch on her. That girl never looked at the machine. Sittin' there looking up at the woman and them thing-- [laughs] she'd run that thing off, hand it to her. She looked at it and looked at her watch. Say, you got the job. So I put Suzy in. Well, a friend of mine had told me, say, if you put a Colored girl in the office in the Westinghouse anywhere, I'll go to New York and climb the highest building and jump off. So I got in. I sent away to catch the next train out. [laughs] I had this big tray that I had heard. There was a big write up in the Courier about us. My picture in that picture and all the paper. So I put in the office. So Suzy stayed there. But, they had in the back room there. Nobody didn't know she was in there. So I went back in and said, Where's Suzy? She's in the back there. I said, Why she in the back. I said, why don't I Suzy in here. I said, I want Suzy out here with these other typewriters. So everybody panic. No Suzy in here.