Pace, Frankie, April 8, 1973, tape 1, side 2

Gary Walters: Uh, when you were talking about the Lower Hill project and the people who had to be relocated out of there, some people say that--or you mentioned before about the people then moving to the home--Homewood area and the, you know, overcrowding that then took place there. Other people say it was a two step thing and that the people from the Lower Hill first moved up into this area and created such an overcrowding condition here that some of the original Middle Hill people then moved. They were the ones that moved out to to Homewood.

Frankie Pace: Well, that may have been, but the majority of the people, see people out there bought large homes and they cut them up into apartments and they took people, you know, with with putting people over there. But the majority of the people there wasn't too much a place up here in the Middle Hill for them to come. There wasn't enough vacancies. Those who could, did come up here, but the majority of them--a few went to the North Side, but the majority of them did go to Homewood. You see, everybody got frightened, including the renewal people. It was a new thing. They didn't know what they were doing. No proper relocation. You see, with federal money you was not supposed to destroy until you had the people relocated. But when the people heard you're coming and they saw the bulldozers and things, again, the people were just like rabbits. They began to run. They just got frightened. We better go somewhere. They going to knock us down. And they began to run wherever they could. And those who had a little money they bought, you see, because they weren't given anything to mount anything for the property. You know what I mean? Even the churches that were taken down, they had to go to court to get a reasonable amount of money so they could relocate. The oldest church in the city, Bethel, was relocated.

Pace: It sat--you can't, I can't line the streets now, but it was on Wylie and it sat right where the Civic Arena is now. It's on a part of that ground and they have to go to court and sue to get any kind of decent price for that church. And then they didn't get enough to pay for the church they rebuilt. They had to go into some debt, but they did get a better price than what the city was offering them. They just went in there and just scared the people to death and took everything. Now, the people is not that frightened now. They won't run that quick now. See, they'll stand back and fight you. Even with homes now, they'll they'll stand back. They they stand back and fight you some even with the with the homes now they won't they won't run as fast as they did before. But then they were just frightened to death and they just ran like crazy people because they didn't know where to go. And they said, if I can find any place that I can go now, I'm going to go right now. And they would they would run. This is what happened down there, see. And it was a lot of people, if they had have been--had it been explained a little bit more to them and you had a relocation office, probably we wouldn't have had their dilemma as we did.

Pace: But they, the Urban Renewal, didn't know what they were doing. The people didn't know, and they all got frightened and we just had a panic. That's right. Now we need. Okay, now we have here now--what we need in the Hill now. We have a lot of vacant lots where they've torn down buildings People are dumping on them. And now this fellow works for the health department, they're on the rodent control, and they've been cleaning for rats. But you can't do away with the rats unless you do away with the debris. You understand? And now if somebody comes and puts something on a lot. Another person will, and soon that will become a pile of debris. Now we. This is what I'm on them now. Now the health department. Now, here's a law by the city. If it's a private lot, you can't set foot on it. Even if I went in there and clean it up, the owner could put me in jail. Without his permission. See, now, so this is this is the thing. And the city can't do these things, so this is what you are. But now I understand that I think we're going to have a drive on pretty soon, as soon as the weather breaks, and we're going to try to clean up most of these things here and do something about some of the things.

Pace: And we would have--had not this freeze been put on by houses, by on the, on the money, we would have had quite a bit of housing going up here. And now what we want to do and this is what I approve of. I don't think a community should be a community of all Black people or a community of all poor people. I think a community should be a community of mixed people. And I don't think you ought to be designated out in spots that you are wealthy. You are upper middle class. I think it ought to be intermingled and you ought to make a decent house. And maybe I live there and I'm on welfare, but if I'm a decent person, I keep it clean. Nobody shouldn't point to my door and say, that lady lives in there is on welfare. You understand what I mean? This this is what I think and this is what we hope that will develop in the Hill that we will be able to put some housing here where we can bring back people who are in our. And look, I don't like to class people and classes, but people with more money can live there, people with little less and little less even until we get down to a welfare recipient. Because even though you're welfare recipient, you're still a person and there are some good and there are some bad in all things.

Pace: And I think that they ought to be mixed so that they can have an incentive to move from--see, this is why I had so much against Chicago. You see, they moved the slums and made a new slum because they moved the poor people into new housing, but they put everybody there on welfare, 15, 17 story apartments. Everybody that go to the school in that community is a welfare recipient. You know, this is not good, but they have so many people. Every four blocks they got a school and nobody's in that school but the children out of those buildings. So that's just from an old slum to new slum. That's why the people told Daley, no more big high rise welfare, because you can't you're not helping those people. They're right in the same. Nobody's there to add to nothing. We're all in the same category. So this is the thing. So if we can get the Hill so that we can have it developed, it's near the town. And I think if we put some nice house--like the people are living in Washington Plaza and you know, they now they don't call it the Hill they says Chatham Center is the--it's called the Upper Golden triangle.

Pace: Yeah. And Washington Plaza is the Civic Arena area. See and when they asked me where do they live, I say in the Hill district. [laughter] So they say, do you have it? I said, Yeah, we got Chatham Center in the Hill and we got Washington Plaza in the Lower Hill. But now they're going to change the name you see! Before it was the Lower Hill, the Middle Hill, the Upper, see, and this--that's the Hill. This is the Hill District. And when they were drawing the plan, I said, Don't you come here classifying this hill. You just say Hill District.

Walters: Mr. Lavelle mentioned that the key issue is not--is that they not draw the plan, that you draw the plan that kind of an issue of self determination of what--

Pace: You mean the people? Well, that's what I'm saying! This is what I was saying, that we would say this is what we were saying to URA. Don't you come up here and tell us this is what we're going to have. You let us tell you that this is what we want. Then with your expertise, you put this into action. But we want to say that we want this there and we want that there. This is self determination and this is what had been so hard for us to get the city people to say. And but Bob Lavelle and I have said it so much till they're tired when they hear us get up because they know this is what you're going to say at every meeting. And and we hate--it is repetitious, but you got to keep driving this home to the people and you got to let people. And what we have been trying to do here is to try to build a confidence in the people here. Don't give up. You see, some people say you can't fight city hall. Well, well, but don't give up. You are city hall. You are the voters. You are the people. They count noses when you go down there and run over that city council in big numbers. They going to run up and look and say, look at them, Look, look at how many people we had down there. This is what we're trying to create within the people. And this is why we're trying to hold our citizen group together. Because you're independent, you're not controlled. Nobody's paying nobody. This is why the [??] have to be in here. We don't have any money. We're going to try to get something from foundation that we can hire a coordinator because we need that. I'm just answering the phone, but we want somebody with the expertise that we can coordinate, things that we can do. And this is the thing. So this is what we actually need.

Walters: I, I noticed in the paper yesterday an article about 266 new and rehabilitated homes to be built or redone here in the Hill. Pace: By who? Walters: Um, URA made the announcement, I believe.

Pace: Did they get some money?

Pace: See, I didn't read the paper yesterday. I've broken my glasses.

Walters: This was on the second page.

Pace: Yeah, well, I didn't read. I didn't buy a paper because I broke my glasses. I can't read. I'm going to the doctor tomorrow to get glasses, so there was no need to buy paper. I have some old glasses that I just put on to see things, but I shouldn't use them because they're very old and the eyes are pulling, which is doing me no good. So I didn't--it was no need for me to buy paper, but I usually get that because they usually have the announcement. Well, now you see what URA had promised us, see you already bought up a lot of property here of old houses, people, people moved out. But what they did at that particular time, which was different from before, this is what I'm telling you. You would not just handed a few dollars for your house. You were placed in a good house. The moving was paid. Now, some people, they had to pay much more for a house for them. But URA would pay that up to a certain bracket and you would get in that house. Now, they had promised people who left the Hill that when they put these houses back here, if they wanted to come back, they would have a choice, you know, to come back. And it was supposed to be going up here. These were supposed to be so many new houses and so many rehabilitated houses. I think it was something like around a thousand. And this was what we was hoping to see by now, being a great boom.

Pace: But the bottom fell out. See, this was--even AHRCO, who has done a lot of rehabilitating, AHRCO could rehabilitate a thousand houses a year, but their money was cut off. And they did a beautiful job of rehabilitating because there was some sound structures outside and they would go in and gut them, and when they fixed them, they would just like brand new. And you see, you still got to remember that we still don't have any housing for the low income person, even with these rehabilitated houses, because the only people can get in those houses that are poor is a person that can be subsidized. And at one time we was getting 20% and then in some houses we got 40. But but the president said now he want that cut back to ten. So you see what few people that's going to help see because you would pay what you could and the government would pay the rest and you could live. The only place the poor people can a poor person can live is in the project. And you see you just cluttered up there. This is it. And if they would take me and put me in the project, I guess I don't know. At this age, I don't know what I'd do because I wouldn't want all that. But I know you have to if you can't do any better and this is what you have to do. But now to go out and rent an apartment, it's very expensive and people on fixed incomes can't do it.

Walters: Now you've--in your activities up here, you've gone through actually all with Mayor Lawrence and Mayor Barr and now-- Pace: 35 years.

Pace: Yeah. Now you want me to-- [laughs] --to render a decision on that? Yeah.

Walters: Can you just kind of assess who you found the most responsive to, say, the needs of the people in the Hill?

Pace: Well, the most responsive has been Mr. Flaherty. To me. I got nothing under Lawrence. I got a little better under Barr, but got absolutely nothing under Lawrence.

Walters: Do you think after the, like the Golden Triangle in that area were done, if Lawrence were, were still mayor, he then would have turned to activities?

Pace: Now he might, he might have done it. With the change we've had by the disturbance, he might have done it. But Lawrence and a fellow by the name of Dave Roberts, I know he's dead now. Both of them dead. They controlled up here with an iron fence. They came up and they said, deliver this to this candidate, deliver this to this candidate. And the poor Black people up here knew nothing but just follow a line. Now, you might not believe this, but when I first came to this city to vote--to this section of Pittsburgh 35 years ago and went to vote. Now you hear me talking. I'm a registered Republican, but I'm not a Nixon Republican. I'm an independent voter, but I'm a registered Republican. The reason I'm a registered--the reason I'm a Republican, you see, I came from Louisiana, the Deep South. As a child, and we were so ill treated at the time I was a child in the South. And all I knew down there was Democrats. Everybody was a Democrat. And and I just figured if I ever got when we and my parents when we go to people when they got so they could vote, we vote we registered Republican. Because when we would get a Republican person in, when you get a Republican person in down South, we would get even in the post office where they could appoint people, you would get a little better treatment from them, which was nothing, but it would be a little better.

Pace: And of course, then after we moved after see, when I moved to Chicago, I came under a Republican administration, which was excellent. See? Was excellent. Then you see, the machine hadn't taken over like it is when I came to Chicago as a girl there and began to work even before I was old enough to vote, I began working out in the community. This was a part of my life because I couldn't vote till I was 21. But I worked with my sister out in the community and became acquainted with it. I used to make campaign speeches go from place to place, and we had a Republican controlled city, which was excellent for Black people. We had a man who was called I don't know if you've ever heard of him, he was called, his name was William Hale Thompson. And he was the mayor of the city of Chicago. This was before the Kelly Nash machine came in and took over, and that's when it became dominated, which it is still yet up to Daley. Not as strong. And we had the finest of success. This was when Oscar DePriest was first elected to Congress, and he was the first Black congressman, went there after 39 years. He was elected from out of Chicago. That was when we had that big Republican and I was a worker there. Well, you see, this made me a very strong, dedicated Republican because we were getting something and we had gotten nothing, you know, in my lifetime before.

Pace: And Chicago was then. Then after this man went in, in fact, he ran twice. He went out and then he came back because he was so popular, he could defeat any Democrat they would put up. But after he went out, then the city turned Democrat and the machine rolled in. You had first the Kelly Nash machine was the mayor, was Kelly, and the commissioner was was Nash. And then after they went out, you got the Daley machine. And now the commission is now have some Republicans in it. But the city proper is still the Daley machine. But I think this will be the end of Daley this last year. I don't I don't think Chicago will be machine dominated anymore after Daley go out. It'll have a strong Democrat thing, but it won't be a machine thing. Like, yeah, because you have some young Democrats there that's thinking different from his way of thinking and you're going to have a mixed thing. And this is why I have always been a registered Republican, but I vote independently. Now sometime in the primaries, there's nobody on the Republican ticket that I'm interested in or maybe one person. Well see in the general election, then I can vote for who I please. And this is the way I vote independent.

Pace: I've never been a machine voter. Nobody tells me pull a lever. But you see, that's what they used to do up here. Machine. They'd say, Pull a lever and you pull a lever and they may have dog or cat on there, he was elected because you pulling the lever and everybody that's on there is being elected. See what I mean? So this was the thing that that I have always been so but now I don't agree with everything Mayor Flaherty does. Now I want that thoroughly understood. Me and him differ on the school issue because I think sometime busing is necessary. I don't think it's the best policy. But I think since we have the type of pattern of housing that we have, if we're going to integrate the schools, we gotta bus. And I do think that we don't have to always bus Black children out. I think we ought to bus some White children in. I think all the schools ought to be brought up to standard. Now, I know that now this we differ very bitterly on this. But as far as service to the community, I can truthfully say. That I have gotten better service under Flaherty than I've got these 35 years I've stayed on Centre Avenue. I can call up down there today to the service center that he's put in. And say such and such a thing has to be cleaned up. They'll say, All right, we'll take care of it in a certain number of days.

Pace: If it's not taken care of, I'll make another call and I'll say, okay, connect me with the department here. I'll get it. In less than 24 hours, I get service. These buildings were boarded up here through me. Don't let nobody tell you this is how it was done. I called on and I got the head of building inspector and I said, Now we've had some fires up here. You know, we got drug addicts on the street. They go in that night, they can scratch a match. All this block will go up. We want them buildings boarded up with heavy boards so people can't get them, within 24 hours I had the men out there boarded them up. If I have cars here that need to be towed in within the limit of time, they you have to have a give a few days they will be removed. Now, this is true. The streets, the garbage was being picked up twice a week, the cans on the corner, and we said we need more. They been picked up three times now. If you have a report on rubbish that has not been picked up, a man has got to come out and you got to sign a slip to show that your complaint has been taken care of. We never had that before. If I called out, if I called out, a man has to come out here and I have to sign a slip that my complaint has been taken care of.

Pace: Now, these type of services we did not get before! I mean, they picked up. But you see, here's what the people holler about. They are hollering about Flaherty making them work eight hours a day. And that's what they should have done. They don't want to. People went down there and signed their name and walked out the City-county building and drew a check every month. Some went in there and worked two hours and drew a check every month. Some went in 2 or 3 times a week and drew a check every month. This is true. And you had them sitting on top of each other in the tax offices and things like that. And and you'd go down there and say, Will you look up this for me? Come back tomorrow. You don't say that today. You better not say it if you do. You know what's going to happen to you. And he consolidated a lot. And I was talking with a woman who was not too much in love with him. I was talking with her yesterday. She worked in a tax office. And she said, despite what they say, that man has collected more delinquent taxes than anybody in the city because the people had pull and you say push mine under the cover and it was pushed back.

Pace: You understand everybody had somebody could push things back. And I'll deal with you because I'm a politician. I can get a place of this. This is right and let's face it, he put young men in jobs! He--all them old men was old as Methuselah have been moved out and he's put young men in jobs and they're coming. And I know they they want it now. Now there's certain things I think he ought to take a little more initiative on trying to fight for our government money. And I think to get it in here or something like that. But as far as services and what I'm interested in, I don't give a darn about Skybus because Skybus don't mean a thing to the Hill District. I'm interested in the Hill District and Centre Avenue! Skybus is coming out of Mount Washington. It ain't going to give a soul up here a job. So I could care less about Skybus. That ain't doing a thing for the rundown community here. It'll be--I'll be dead and in my grave before Skybus hits Centre Avenue. So you see, I'm not concerned. I don't care if you don't agree with Skybus, as far as I'm concerned. Now, I do think--and I don't care a darn about the convention center because they wanted to put that on Melody Tent, where we need housing! And if we hadn't went down, me and Ovella Spastik, and took a stand, they could come up here and they'd come up here and offer to buy up people.

Pace: And if you're in an organization where you're being supported, you can't stand out and fight it! So these are the things that and--and I just I don't I know that there are people say well he should do this for housing. He should do this. I know he's a I'm not saying he's 100% even 85. But as far as I have served under that mayor for service in the Hill District. And if if the election come and I had to choose between Flaherty and Caliguiri, I would choose Flaherty because I don't know anything about Caliguiri. I don't know what he would do. That's right. Now, I'm not saying--I did think a lot of Mr. Taber, who ran against Flaherty last year. I mean, before. Mr. Taber is a fine man, an excellent man. I worked with him. He's a fine person. Now, it would have satisfied me for him or Flaherty to have been elected mayor. Those two men, I think Mr. Taber was a Republican and I did vote for Mr. Taber because I thought he was a very fine man, but he lost it by such a big vote. The people didn't run. Now, I don't know what's going to happen now, but I do feel this. I feel I feel that if Caliguiri gets in, he's going to be machine controlled. I really believe that because Staisey and Barr and them is not going to put nobody there and support nobody that they can't control.

Pace: And I don't want to see this city come back into a machine crutch thing like it was for 35 years and 35 years, it was dominated by a machine. That's right. But I think you have now, I don't know how the election is going to turn. They have money, it's true. But I think you have more of an independent voter today. And you have the younger voter and you have the more people are reading more and they are not being controlled by a committeeman. Because you endorsed by the committeeman don't mean you're going to control the ward because people are going to read and listen and they're going to vote. If they choose to vote, they're going to vote for who they want to vote for. But it was a time that they controlled it because they said, you come on down and I'm going to give so many jobs. But they can't say that today, not with this. But see, this is what has happened. You got 8 or 9 votes in your house. Well, the man would come around and say, now you vote for for for John Smith. And we'll see to it that somebody in your family gets a job wherever there was a place or not, you got a job. Now, this is what I call machine politics.

Walters: Did it provide jobs to families in the Hill?

Pace: No! We never had nothing. Name me one or something That's right. Under--under--under--under--under Lawrence, under Barr, nobody had no what you call a top notch job. I call them flunky jobs. They had low paying, very low paying. None of them had no high paying job. None of them was never put on what you call a cabinet level. A head of a department. Under Lawrence nor Barr, not a Black person. You have Churchill-Coleman now today head of the Housing Authority. I know it's a problem, but he's a young man. There you have Dave Washington there as the attorney for the housing. Another young man. Now, we had old men there before, Mr. Utterback. He was a Black man. He was their attorney. But, you know, there was an older people. They were kind of this is it. He's retired now. But you see this and even in your in your in in the offices there, in the tax offices there. These are younger men working there. It's really it's really it's really something. It's really nice, believe me. I mean, now I'm not saying he's doing--

Pace: [sound of pounding of a door] Hello there, man. You bringing me a lot of packages today, aren't you? Oh, I'm telling you, you putting me in debt. [laughs] Let me sign this. [sound of footsteps]

Pace: Now, I was very friendly. And you see people hear me talking and they say, Oh, she's a big Democrat. And here I'm sitting up here a Republican. [laughter] But but when you were doing something for a community, I don't feel that you ought to go down and say you have to get this.

Pace: So they can't say, nobody's giving me nothing because I'm a Democrat, because I've never been. But I think you have to be forcible enough to speak out sometime and say very unpopular things, which I do. And but--but I never say nothing out of the way. But I have to say it. I might go down to city council and tell them they ain't worth the chairs they sitting in. And I might just say that, see? And at sometime I feel that way about him. And but they know that I'm trying to do what I'm trying to say and trying to do. It's for the betterment of the community. I'm not trying to do anything to glorify myself. You know, when I went to Washington, I had to appear before the Senate committee. I never thought I'd ever have an opportunity in my life to sit sit in the Senate chambers and talk back to senators. [laughter] And I wanted that opportunity, but I never dreamed I'd ever get it! Because I said one time, if I could just get up there and tell them, Senators, what I think about these things, I said, But I'll never get the opportunity. But the opportunity came through community action. And when I went down there, I said to the man, when I went, I said, you know, I don't know how to be nobody but Frankie Pace, so don't tell me.

Pace: Say nothing this way or that way. He said, That's why you're going because we know nobody ain't going to tell you what to say. So when I got there, a woman, when we went into to the chambers, I never had been in there before. Well, we had a chance to go into the Senate club where they eat. You know, this is the most exclusive because we were--Senator Clark from here who had invited us. He was the head of the investigating committee. And we went in there and we had breakfast with him. So all this folks with white coats and black ties and everything, we rode on this little, little train, you know, where you don't have to get on the ground and steps out of the little machine. Senators don't come out on the ground till they're ready to go home. Exclusive, got special elevators in which they ride, you know, Senate elevators, you know, touch that. And so anyway, when we got there and they put us in this big room and, you know, you're sitting out there with these men in front of you and you don't know what in the world they're going to ask you. They're going to throw questions at you. Right. And so one girl that was there with us, she had a book. And I said, what are you going to do with that book? She said, Maybe I can look up something.

Pace: I say, Not when they ask me a question. So Senator Clark had told us, he said, I have no idea what they're going to ask you. He said, You just answer the best of your ability. You're going to be you're going to be questioned by different senators, some favorable or unfavorable. So you just have to--you're on your own. I can't tell you a question they will ask you. I don't know. But Senator Murphy from California was then a senator. That man upset me so. He said we were five people at being questioned, knowing you were not supposed to speak until you return. And I think he thought because he knew we had met with Senator Clark. And the first thing he said after they started questioning us, he says, Who are these people? Have they been schooled and drilled and told what to say and what not to say and what questions to answer and what not? Lord, when he said that I forgot I was in the Senate place, my real my real self came out. And I know you're not supposed to speak without addressing. I said, Will you just let me answer him? And I remember somebody saying, I was so upset. Ms. Pace You got to address the chair. [laughs] And I said, Mr. Chairman, you got to let me talk. This is what I said.

Pace: And he said, Ms. Pace--Senator Yorty, I think that's what's his name--you have to ask Senator Yorty to yield. You know how they do these things, all that protocol. I say, Senator, you got to heal because this is my chance and I might not have it again. I got to answer, Mr. Murphy. And at that time, if I had just thought that he had been an entertainer, I would have questioned his qualifications, you know. But you see, they didn't they didn't have California. They just had Senator Murphy. And I didn't know exactly at that time. Now, the others had a stake in front of him. But, honey, when I got through with him, I don't know what I said because I just went to talking. And I remember when I got through, he said, I didn't mean it like that. And I said, I don't know what you meant, but I know what you said. And I had whatever I had said, I had said it to him. [laughter] And I didn't know until he said it back to me what all I had really said. But I was talking fast and quick and I just whatever came in came out. And and so I didn't see a camera. I didn't see a television. I didn't see nothing but him. And he had reflected on you being a tool or a stooge or something. And this was this was what upset me.

Pace: And I said, So when I came out, I remember the woman when I went in, the woman asked me that I have a statement. And I said, No, you hear my statement from from the floor. So when I came out, she was from the Post Gazette here in Washington. When I came out, she said, You made it very thorough. [laughs] I didn't know what I had said. Really till they said that thing back to me. And I really I said it. I say all of this, but I, I knew when I read it, but these are the things. But you got to put any fear down as long as you don't call nobody out their name. I knew I couldn't do that and I wasn't going to do it. I don't use that type of language that's not in my vocabulary, so I don't have to be worried about that. I don't use that language. So I knew I wasn't going to say nothing. The most I ever said, I might say, said, I don't give a darn or something like that. This is. But I other than that, I would never use any words. So I know I wouldn't have to be, but I just had to. And you know, when you're sitting there and you're being questioned by these people and we were sitting there and we were questioned for over three hours and you just sitting there and they're throwing everything at you about a program that they don't.

Pace: They got picked out and this, that and the other. You just got to be waiting and trying to answer as best you can. That's right. And I'm telling you. But it was an experience for me that I'll never forget. But I wasn't afraid after I got there and sat down and kind of relaxed myself, I said, These ain't nothing but men. And all I have to do is say, Mr. Senator or Mr. whoever you are. But this was one thing that endeared me to Senator Kennedy. The one that's living, Edward. Now, Robert was supposed to be there, but he wasn't. And he and Javits, those were the two that were supposed to be there. It was supposed to be seven and it was five. Those two, they reported they were absent for some reason. But when Senator Edward Kennedy would ask us a question when it came his time to quiz us, he would put it in the simplest form. He would try to put it down in layman's language. And if he would ask a question and somebody didn't quite understand it, he'd say, Let me phrase it this way, and maybe this is a little simple. You will understand what I'm talking about. He was so nice with his--with, with the way he handled us more than anybody on that panel. Now, the others were not nasty, but they would ask you some way around.

Pace: They didn't try to simplify it. And he knew. They knew they had people there because, you see, they started to talking to them about. A guaranteed income for each person. Well, now, some of the people we had there, they didn't understand what that meant. You understand, because one of the girls said is that welfare, you know, she--they didn't understand. But I see. And Senator Kennedy, when when it got to them, he went into real detail with it. And he he tried to explain it in detail what they were talking about, a guaranteed income for poor people and so forth. Then when he got through this, these people would understand what they were saying. Now I see some of the people thought that would just mean that you would still be giving them, which it would be a subsidy, but it would be just the same as the welfare. I'm going to be considered on welfare and I can't they didn't understand that if you got a guaranteed income that you would be living on a higher level than you would on welfare and you would be able to do more things for yourself than you would by just getting a welfare check, which was limited to this. You would be getting a certain amount of money as anybody working on a job and you would be able to spend that money. But you see, some of them didn't understand that.

Pace: And these are the things that hit these people, some of them right now. And they didn't know just what to say, you know, about it. But I think the reason I did, I was knowledgeable, as I told you, I was in the I was representing a board. I was the only one. And I had followed it through step by step from beginning. I didn't know all the details of the programs, but I did know what we needed in the community because Todd, I think he's from Rhode Island. They would ask you questions about different programs and this and that and the other. And I'd say to him, What do you know about what I need in the Hill? I said, The Hill is a complete different thing from Rhode Island, where you come from. Now, how are you going to sit up here and make the rules for me to use? Do you know anything about the conditions that exist? You let me tell you what I need in the Hill, then you appropriate the money and let us use it for the programs that we feel are the best needed. So you see, this is why a lot of the poverty programs fail they are because they would tell you what you had to do with the money. And this was not the best program. But they would say, you got to use this to do this with when you needed it to do that.

Pace: But they--they figured this was best and it was a set of rules made up by them, too. And and say, well, now you say, can we do this with. No you can't, you can't use that money for this or that. Okay. This is the trouble with most government programs. They make them up in Washington and you don't make them up here and they don't know the needs of your community like you do. Even you might send somebody to go in and look over the thing, but they don't know it like a person who stayed there and lived there and know the people and know the conditions and know what to do. But see, this is why a lot of the programs have failed social agencies the same way. You got somebody who figured, well, I've got a master's degree, I've got a doctorate degree, why would I let her come in here? Now, she may not know how--he may not know how to put it into the to to write a proposal, but he can tell you what ought to be in that proposal. He can tell you what we want, then since you have the expertise, then you put it into the proper prospect. This is it. This is what we wanted the planners to do for the Hill. You got the planners, you draw the plan, but we want to tell you what we want. Then you put it in the right perspective.

Walters: Well, thank you very much, Mrs. Pace. I certainly appreciate you. Let me take some of your time today.