Udin, Sala, August 12, 1999, tape 1, side 1

Michael Snow: Archives interview with Sala Udin, member of Pittsburgh City Council, former chief of staff to Jake Miliones, city councillor and longtime community activist. It is August 12th, 1999, and we're sitting in Councilmember Udin's offices in the City County Building in downtown Pittsburgh. The interviewer is Michael Snow, a graduate student researcher for the Archives Service Center. Could you state your-- begin by stating your full name and date of birth? Sala Udin: Sala Udin, is my name. I was born on February 20th, 1943. I was born with the name of Samuel Howze. H. O. W. Z. E. and as a part of the-- Black consciousness cultural movement of the 60s I changed my name, although not legally, uh but usage wise in 1968 to Sala Udin, which is a, um, North African, um, name of a North African king, and the name interprets to mean, "one who seeks knowledge." Snow: Oh, great. How did you happen upon that name or was it chosen for you? Udin: At the time, um, there were, um, many people-- Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, many people changing their names, um, to names that identified with their African cultural heritage, and I was a part of that movement. Snow: Great, and you chose it yourself? Udin: No I was given the name by someone else. Snow: Great. Do you remember when and where your parents were born? Udin: My mother was born in Savannah, Georgia, and my father was born in Hattiesburg, Mississippi-- My father was born in 1910.

Udin: My mother was born in 1911. Snow: And you were born here? Udin: Yes, in Pittsburgh. Snow: And when and what brought them to Pittsburgh? Udin: Um, my father came to Pittsburgh, um, to live with his sister, who had come to Pittsburgh from Mississippi, um, seeking work. My mother came to Pittsburgh to live with her sister [Snow: Hmm] who had been brought to Pittsburgh by her husband, uh, to work. So economic opportunity from the South to the North was the impetus for both my mother and my father leaving the South to come to Pittsburgh as a part of a larger, um, migration of African Americans from the South to the North. As a matter of fact, the migration of African Americans around that time, I understand, is the largest migration in human history. Snow: Yes. Some urban geographers are now claiming the move to the suburbs, but I think that it's not-- that's not as [Udin: I wouldn't call that a migration] distinct, right. [laughter, unintelligible] And about what time period did they move? Udin: I think they came around 1920. Snow: Okay. Udin: 19-- Yeah. Around 1920. 19-- 1920, 1930. Snow: What occupation was your father pursuing? Udin: Um, He was not educated or skilled. Um, he learned to become a clothes presser, uh,at the North Side Laundry after working in a few different jobs, um, and that's what he did most of his life, pressed clothes and did laundry. Um, my mother, um, graduated from high school, um, but the only work she could find was as a...

Udin: Cleaning woman-- a maid.

Udin: And she worked in the homes of several, well-off Pittsburgh families, as a maid. Snow: Did you have much interaction with them yourself? Udin: With who? Snow: The families, with whom-- in whose houses she worked? Udin: No. Snow: When you were growing up, did your family have many customs or beliefs that set you apart from other people about town or that, say, African Americans today no longer practice? Udin: We had customs that-- I guess the primary cultural custom that set us apart was the fact that we were Black Catholics. Snow: Oh, really? Udin: And we went to Catholic school rather than the public school-- Another thing that set us apart was the number of children, there were 13 children. Um-- Those are the things that I think set us apart. We were-- um, trained, um, rigorously trained in good behavior and manners. Um, in staying together as a family unit, working together, loving each other, taking care of each other-- Probably more so, a little above average. My mother and father cared a lot about, um, how we behaved and how we presented ourselves in public.

Snow: When I interviewed Carolyn Franklin, who was also an activist in the 60s-- her parents had also moved up from the South and we were talking about how-- we both surmised that perhaps, um, children of-- African American children had to be brought up to be stricter in their politeness as a defense mechanism. Do you think that's true?

Udin: Um, there's probably some truth to that. Um, as a protective, uh kind of mechanism. I'm sure that that's true, but there's also a certain religiosity to it. Um, so the combination of the two [phone rings] and the eagerness of Black people to fit into America, uh, is also a part of probably what made parents conscious about the social skills of their children.

Snow: I think you're right. In what neighborhoods did you grow up?

Udin: Now they call it the Lower Hill District. Um, at the time we called it down the Hill, there was down the Hill and there was up the Hill. The down the Hill was closer to Downtown, and I guess the border would have been near the current Crawford Street, um, and beyond that would have been considered up the Hill. Snow: Oh really? Udin: Yes. The Upper Hill-- and the Lower Hill. But I was brought up in the Lower Hill district, um, near Fullerton-- on the corner, We lived on the corner of Fullerton and Epiphany, which was a block over from the famous Fullerton and Wylie, which was the cultural and commercial center of the Lower Hill District-- Wylie Avenue was. Snow: Yes. Udin: and Fullerton was. So we lived a block away from Wylie, um, on the corner there. That's where I was raised until I was ten years old and-- then came the demolition of the Lower Hill District.

Udin: And we moved...

Udin: Into some new public housing apartments, projects, um, on Francis Street in the Upper Hill, near Schenley Heights, or Sugartop, as we called it.

Snow: What stands out in your memory of growing up in the down the Hill area?

Udin: Um-- The geography. I remember the houses and the cobblestone streets very well. We lived above a grocery store. Um, There were just a lot of people always around. There were these clubs across the street which were high society social clubs. Snow: Oh, really? Udin: On Fullerton, between Epiphany and Wylie. They were like three clubs. One was the Loendi Club, another was the Washington Club, and I think the Musicians Club. Which was a kind of a club owned by the Black Musicians Union-- At that time, the musicians union was segregated-- Snow: Right. Udin: and the Black Musicians Union had a club where they played after hours. Um, and it was on Fullerton, as well. I remember the theater. There was a theater at the corner of Wylie and, um, Fullerton. [I] remember Good's drugstore-- Um, Georgie Benson, was a childhood friend, as well as August Wilson.

Snow: Oh, really?

Udin: Mmhmm. August went to Catholic school too. We went to Holy Trinity.

Udin: And I remember...

Udin: Playing-- our family was so large that our friends were our brothers and sisters. We didn't have to go down the street to make friends. We were our own friends. Snow: Okay. Udin: Um, and we can-- we had enough of us to get a baseball game going [laughter] or any game you wanted to play there were enough of us right within the family. We had a lot of friends in the neighborhood, but we also did a lot of playing among ourselves.

Snow: When Cyril Wecht was growing up in I guess the Middle Hill district, it seems that the Irish dominated baseball on the sandlots of the area. I don't know if that was still going on a few years [Udin: Um] later when you were growing. Udin: I was

Udin: Probably--Um, I didn't play organized sports, um, because I guess around the time that I would have been attracted to organized sports we moved to a new neighborhood. Snow: Right. Udin: Um, and I didn't get into organized sports there. Um, So I don't-- I don't know who who was dominating who on on the baseball field. Snow: Okay.

Snow: How would you characterize the living conditions and also the makeup of public housing on Francis Street?

Udin: Now or then. Snow: Uh,then. Udin: Um, frankly, I thought we had struck it rich. Snow: Yes. Udin: They were brand new. They had just built them. So all of the apartments were brand new. You could smell-- you could still smell the fresh paint. Snow: Wow. Udin: The apartments came equipped with, um, new kitchen, um, and bathroom facilities. Um, So that was a delight, I had never seen, um, refrigerator and stove that new. Snow: Hmm. Udin: The-- the winters on down the hill were cold, and the house was cold. Drafts coming through everywhere. Um, but the heat of the public housing apartments, um, was overwhelming. The fact that we would have sufficient heat without freezing through the winters. That was like-- a mind blower. Snow: Yes. Udin: Um, Those were the kinds of things that uh-- So it was like, everything was brand new and um,there were many, many people moving in who we knew, because they all moved up from the Lower Hill District. Snow: Oh, Okay. Udin: So-- plus there were new friends...

Udin: That we met.

Udin: And they had a lot of rules that you were required to adhere to in public housing that have since been lost. Um, One-- You had to be married. Secondly, one of the two married people had to be working. Snow: Hmm. Udin: Thirdly, the responsibilities for cleaning the hallways,the front court, the garbage court, the laundry area were assigned to the tenants on a rotating basis. Snow: Really? Udin: Oh, yeah. And you were fined if inspectors came and saw any of those areas unclean-- Snow: Wow. and unkempt, they would take a note-- they would determine whose turn it was to keep the area clean, and you'd get a fine-- 2 or 3 dollars or something like that added to your rent. So-- those chores became a part of our chores, um, and we kept the area well. There also-- the, um-- living in-- that many people in such close quarters created a, um, a community that was different than the kind of community that we left where your neighbors on the block, they're your neighbors, but when you all live in the same building, that creates a different kind of community, a closer community, and all-- all of the adults became parents of all of the children-- Snow: Hmm. Udin: and all of the children became siblings. Snow: Okay. Udin: That's what I remember most about the early days in the projects.

Snow: Those are fantastic observations. Um, I'm surprised you could find an apartment in the public housing that was large enough to accommodate your family.

Udin: Well, they didn't give them out based on whether or not it was large enough to accommodate the family. They gave you the largest one they had-- Snow: Okay. Udin: And you accommodated to it. [laughter]

Snow: I thought I remember something about, um, them having limits on the number of people in the-- but that's interesting.

Udin: They had-- I'm sure they had legal limits, but they didn't really try to enforce them. Um-- if you got that many kids, you got that many kids, you get a three bedroom apartment, that's as many bedrooms as they have, and that's the way you make it out. My mother and father had one bedroom, um, and the girls slept in one room, the boys slept in another room, couples slept on the couch in the living room. Snow: Wow. Udin: And that's the way it worked.

Snow: And was, uh, public housing around you in Francis Street becoming more segregated at that point?

Udin: No, by that time, um-- The die had been cast-- the segregation die had been cast to move Whites who dominated public housing from World War Two up to that time-- to move them to the suburbs. Snow: Okay. Udin: With public subsidy, which was not made available to the Blacks who moved into the public housing left by the Whites. So, that's how the segregation-- northern segregation occurred. Um, so all the people who came to Francis Street were Black, and we never knew that the other projects that had been older, and built in 1943, in 1940, 1935, that those projects had mostly White people living in them. We didn't know that. Snow: Okay.

Snow: Interesting. Udin: Because we didn't...

Udin: Go to those communities. So I guess we thought the block where I came from, the neighborhood I came from was all Black. The community that I went to was all Black. So I wasn't aware of segregation taking place. I'm only able to look back on the demographic [Snow: Certainly] changes now and see that at the time we moved into Francis Street, the other projects in Aliquippa Terrace and Whiteside and Summers Drive and all those places, they were White-- And then they were Black, So how did that happen? What were the policies in place to make that happen? What government subsidies did the whites who lived in the public housing receive that enabled them to move to the suburbs? Um, If you read the current history, you would make it-- you would think that people just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, like they tell others to do. Snow: Right. Udin: But the fact is that they got the same kind of government subsidy, uh, that other people got,and they still do get it.

Snow: Right, The FHA loans, the VA loans.

Udin: Section Eight, um, and they just were not made available-- I mean, if you were Black and you somehow found out that these kinds of things were available, you might be able to sneak through, but for the most part, systematically-- that those programs just were not made available.

Snow: Absolutely.

Udin: To Blacks of the same economic standing in order to facilitate segregated housing, which led to segregated schools. Snow: Right. Udin: And which has led to a 1999 segregated city. Snow: Right.

Snow: And did you see much of de facto segregation in public accommodations downtown? Such as in the, in the restaurants? [unintelligible] Yes.

Udin: I don't remember going downtown. Snow: Okay. Udin: We shopped in the neighborhood. Whatever shopping needed to be done outside the neighborhood was done by my parents. I, I don't hardly ever remember going downtown when I lived in the Lower Hill District. Snow: Right, interesting.

Snow: Yes, my students, when I teach modern US history, will oftentimes talk about segregation as only the South, and it was good to hear from Byrd Brown and Carolyn Franklin about not being allowed to go into the theaters and restaurants downtown and department stores where they couldn't work.

Udin: We didn't venture that far. Snow: Okay. [laughter]

Snow: Do you remember any of the residents feelings about the redevelopment plans of the Lower Hill?

Udin: Uh Yes. Um, we were happy. Um, because we got new homes to replace some of the dilapidated homes that we were in.

Snow: Did your family own the house [Udin: No] in the Lower Hills? Udin: They rented.

Udin: While on the one hand we were happy, we were also frightened, because of the new environment that we were moving into that we knew nothing about. Snow: Hmm. Udin: Those were the two things I remember. [phone rings]

Snow: I know that African Americans overwhelmingly voted for David Lawrence and Joe Barnes Democratic organization. I was wondering what you feel African Americans got in return for their loyalty. Udin: Used.

Snow: Really. Udin: Exploited-- oppressed.

Snow: The biography of David Lawrence talks for pages about the civil rights legislation that he was able to get through from various political maneuverings, and, I was wondering if you could specify some of the things you're talking about.

Udin: That who was talking about.

Snow: Um that-- that you were talking about in terms of the exploitation and-- and depression.

Udin: Well, In the North, it was always easy to provide political democracy, and democratic public accommodations, While denying people economic democracy. So, all of the legislation that was being talked about wouldn't mean a hill of beans if people couldn't work and earn a decent living. So the impoverishment that the community was kept in, and the inability of community to develop wealth within the community is the-- was what I mean by being used and oppressed while at the same time giving the impression that you're liberal, and you support all of these democratic measures of the right to vote and the right to eat in the restaurant, except the only problem is you don't have any money to get any food with. Snow: Right. Udin: So, you will not see David Lawrence brag about any economic democracy or economic development that he fostered. It was always-- political development which served his own political interests.

Snow: I thought so too, but it didn't have the specifics of that time period to argue it. Another history of the time period and race relations, The Making of the Second Ghetto by Hirsch, talks a lot about white on black violence in the inner city. In the 50s and 1960s and I was wondering if you saw much of that.

Udin: Well, um, that would have occurred to a large extent in cities that had a larger Black presence than the Black percentage of the Pittsburgh population. The primary White on Black violence that occurred during that time was exercised through the police, rather than through the citizenry. In Chicago or Detroit, there would have been huge race riots. That's the citizenry, The White citizenry versus the Black citizenry. Snow: Right. Udin: That didn't happen here. You had the police commissioned to contain the Black community, and so the White citizenry didn't have to get its hands dirty. The police did that.

Snow: What means were they using to contain the Black citizenry?

Udin: Primarily systemic-- racism and economic oppression. Secondarily-- A heavy police presence-- in the community, which meant any violation of the law was severe physical repercussions-- And any resistance is likely to result in your death. That's how they did it.

Snow: The same fight you've had to pursue for 40 years, then is-- Udin: That's right. Snow: What characterized that time period. Udin: That's right. Snow:[exhales] Before we move on to your activism, um, could you tell me a little bit about-- your schooling-- Holy Trinity, you said-- Udin: Mmhmm. Snow: was the school. That was the high school or the middle school?

Udin: That was the elementary school.

Snow: Elementary.

Udin: Well, we went there until we moved in 1953, and then we transfer to another Catholic school called Saint Richard's.-- And, I graduated from there into Catholic high school-- Central Catholic High School in Oakland.

Snow: You mentioned it was somewhat rare to find Black Catholics. How were you treated in high school?

Udin: Um-- much the same way I've been treated. Well, no, it was a little bit more violent, um, a little more aggressive in-- in Catholic elementary school. Well, we got a very good education, but there was also the constant presence of racially based ridicule. Um, my name is Samuel, and I can often be-- recall being called Little Black Sambo, and, uh, recall stories of-- incidents of uh-- of um-- jokes. And whenever the-- I vividly recall, the extreme humiliation created one day when the story of Little Black Sambo was read in the classroom-- and the-- my father, um, always cut our hair. We were too poor to go to the barbershop-- there was too many of us. So he cut our hair, and because he wasn't a trained barber, one way you can get away with that is just to cut it bald, so you don't have to worry about anything being even. [laughter] You just cut it all off, and so we frequently came to school with bald heads, and they loved to rub our head. The nuns, the priests, the other kids would rub our heads. Um, Little Black Sambo, um all in jest and ridicule. Um, that was a frequent occurrence that uh-- That was a part of that experience. I don't-- I don't want to, um-- create a disproportion.

Udin: There were-- we were, we were not physically abused.

Udin: We were treated kindly, uh, and politely, um, and usually treated well, but also often treated poorly, with the-- with the ridicule. And, and most frequently that came from the students, especially the older students, toward younger students. Um, but it also sometimes came from the nuns. Snow: Oh, really? Udin: The personnel, Yeah. Yeah.

Snow: Malcolm X and his conversations with Alex Haley talks about school teachers basically dashing his dreams of a future and occupations. Were the nuns and priests pushing you to succeed? Or--

Udin: They did push us to succeed, and they, they trained us well. Um, when I dropped out of Central Catholic High School and went to Schenley, um I got an experience of a counselor who, um-- dashed my hopes for a future. Um, there's a-- there's a story. The-- Schenley Heights-- Sugar Top, is the middle class black community. Snow: right. Udin: They fought the building of the Francis Street projects, because it was encroaching on their middle class community and bringing these poor people to their community and lowering the value of their property, etcetera. So many people within the Schenley Heights community fought against the building of those projects, but because it was a part of David Lawrence's grand scheme to take-- to extend Downtown, they lost that fight and the projects were built there at that site, so that by the time we got to high school. The-- we were not welcome. We were the kids from the projects. We were the poor kids who lost, who lived in the projects where that battle was lost. And, um-- I was so ostracized, socially, from student activity at Schenley High School, that I just dropped out. Snow: Wow. Udin: I gotten-- um, asked to leave Central.

Udin: Mainly because of a-- um, a racial-- um, series, I guess, of racial fights and incidents that occurred in the high school, and I wanted to get out of there anyway because I was tired of being different. I wanted to go to the public school where all my friends went, and so I was glad to be asked to leave Central after the last big fight. Snow: Okay. Udin: of all the Black students and a bunch of White students. Um, and-- but when I went to Central, which is Schenley, I was not welcomed by the other students. They were the Sugartop kids who had a whole lot more than the project kids. And-- and so, I didn't apply myself in school. I didn't-- I didn't do homework. I didn't study. I cut class a lot. I played hooky a lot. My grades went down. And, um, eventually the counselor called me in and suggested that, um, I just didn't have the intelligence to cut it with high school academics and, so perhaps I should consider either the Army, or maybe Connelley Trade School. Learn to do something with your hands, because your mind is not sufficiently developed. [laughter]

Snow: So what's said about your writing? [??]

Udin: [laughter] I wasn't doing much writing at the time. Snow: Okay. Udin: So part of me believed that maybe there was some-- maybe I was deficient. Um. And, um-- and this whole school thing is just not for me, and so eventually, I dropped out of Schenley also. And there I was, 16 years old, living in the projects on Francis Street. No high school education, no job, no future, wasting my life, and, um, in constant battles with my father, who was very frustrated by my recalcitrance. I was a badass kid. Um, anything he told me to do, I did the opposite. Snow: Oh, really? Udin: Oh, yeah, well, yeah. Um, and so the situation at home was very, very tense. And, um, I left-- I ran away from home when I was 16 years old, when the opportunity for some-- to go to New York was presented by some friends.

Snow: Excuse me one minute while I turn over the tape.