Brown, Byrd, October 20, 1998, tape 1, side 1

Michael Snow: This is tape one, side one of a state and local government archives oral history interview with Byrd Brown, former Executive Director-- Byrd Brown: President. Snow: President of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and former solicitor for the Community Action Program anti-poverty agency in Pittsburgh and candidate for numerous offices.

Brown: Now just to [unintelligible]

Snow: I thought you also ran for district attorney in 1974.

Brown: That-- what happened is, is that the district attorney committed suicide. The vacancy occurred. The board of judges replaces the district attorney. Snow: I see. Brown: So my name was put in nomination.

Snow: Now, was that Duggan who [Brown: yeah] committed suicide?

Brown: It was Bob Duggan.

Snow: Duggan. I didn't know that. Could you state your full name and date of birth?

Brown: Byrd Rowlett [??]. I don't know if it's Rowlett or Rowlette [ph] or Roulette [ph]. Brown. July 26th, 1929.

Snow: And could you describe your family background?

Brown: I-- I will not go beyond grandparents. I would imagine that we would run into my families from tan to fairly light skin. I'd imagine we would run into White persons who probably didn't want to own up to us, and so I don't want to own up to them. Snow: Understandable. Brown: I do suspect that the-- that the family I do recognize has been more achieving than the family that probably rejected us. Snow: Probably. Brown: My grandfather, David Wellington Byrd, was a-- the first-- second black to graduate from college, the history of Ohio. He graduated from Baldwin Wallace. He had 4 or 5 degrees. He was a physician and a pharmacist, but he made his living primarily as a physician. He's been referenced in the Harvard Medical School books. He was a special assistant to the surgeon general of the United States, who, by the way, was a doctor [??] who lived in Saint James Street in Shadyside. Snow: huh. Brown: My grandmother, my grandfather had four clinics. He was the president of the National Medical Association, which was the Black Medical Association, since we were not permitted [Snow: Right.] by the American Medical Association. My grandmother was a, I think, a pharmacist. She went to a normal school. She was very, very light, obviously. I had some information about her father, but it's not clear and I'm not going to follow up any further. My grandfather was in Ohio. he's very light skinned, too. That's on my mother's side. They settled in Norfolk, Virginia. My mother and her sister, Florence Duke, who graduated from Columbia and Tufts, where she had-- she graduated from Tufts, but had a master's degree from Columbia, and I mentioned this because she's 92 now, and I'm 69 and this is years and years ago.

Brown: And there are hardly any blacks with the colleges. If they did, they didn't go to the colleges like, you know-- Snow: Right. Brown: My mother graduated from Oberlin, and then she met her dad, and my father is the son of Reverend Robert-- Reverend Brown. He was a pastor of several churches, but Roanoke [??] and then the-- I think Huntington, West Virginia. And then he ended up as a pastor of Metropolitan Baptist Church on the north side. His-- my grandmother on my father's side I never really knew she passed before I was born. All I know is she was very, very beautiful, Snow: Hmm. Brown: Striking woman with Indian and Black and Caucasian features-- extraordinary. My father had two brothers that survived. One was a lawyer who, you know, the lawyer and the state senator from Detroit, the other one a physician. Snow: Wow. Brown: and my father's history. You have-- Snow: Right. Brown: So, I was the first grandchild of all these families. I only have two first cousins. Snow: Oh. Brown: and they had two boys. One is deceased, the other is the attorney of Detroit. So as the first grandchild, obviously everything focused on me and I was not permitted to do anything wrong, although I was a pretty naughty fella. [laughte] One thing I understand about my family is that before Jesse Jackson was born, I was taught that we are somebody. I am somebody. And they never let White -- get in my mind and destroy my psyche and my sense of who I am. But they-- I must say, White -- haven't done it. They've done it to all of us to a certain extent, they really tried to protect them from that. For instance, I spent every summer in Norfolk visiting my grandfather and my grandmother who-- and if I had-- if there was somewhere for me to go, they did not let me get on the street corner bus where they would put me in the back.

Brown: They never let me get in a situation where -- would tell me, get in the back of the bus. Snow: Wow. Brown: If someone couldn't take me, I just didn't go. And we never traveled the way that-- we traveled long distance we had to go urinate in the woods so I wouldn't go in the back of the, you know. Snow: Right. Brown: We took our own food, but so that's my background, where they had to have a big role that look reasonably acceptable and salaries were acceptable to integrate things around here. They came to me a couple of times. For instance, I was the first black camper at the YMCA camp and I was the first counselor in training and the camp director came up to me and said I was the best one they had. They were going to promote-- that they were to promote the other eight to be counselors. They couldn't promote me because the parents wouldn't accept the Negro counselor. And we were Negroes then. That's before we-- Snow: Right. Brown: foolishly let -- start calling us Black, which flies into the classical symbol-- symbolism of the society. [noise] You're not light-- you're not light like that paper [unintelligible] Black. [unintelligible] Okay babe thank you very much. Speaker3: I'm clocking out. Brown: Yeah. We let you all get away-- well, well, we put all ourselves. You know, the White news media picks up the black leaders or some guys walking around talking about Black. They weren't [unintelligible] not any of them are even Black. Okay. Not even close to being black.

Snow: Absolutely.

Brown: And so Black was Black in America, anything that's ugly, mean, evil, dark. What's White? You know, you can go to the movies when I was growing-- all the good guys, well, they did have white hats and they rode the white horses. They did, you know. And even today, you know, of course, today that-- we're having this-- I don't know what you call it, chaos stuff. And some of the good guys look malevolent. And I think Jack Palance started that. Oh, I'm sorry.

Snow: No it's-- it's good that that's finally happening. When you were young, your father was elected to the state legislature-- Brown: Right. Snow: aI think you were about six. I was just wondering if the family moved with him to Harrisburg when-- Brown: No. Snow: the legislature was in session?

Brown: No, we never moved. We always lived on Inner Harbor Street. I just sold my mother's house a couple of years ago. [coughs] We never moved. He would go to Harrisburg-- On Thursday, or maybe he would come back on Thursday, and the legislature is not in session for that long. In terms of a-- a cost of spend, he always came back. He would be there about three days a week. In Harrisburg, he and the other black legislators stayed at the-- I forgot her name, the lady had a boarding house. They couldn't stay at a hotel. Snow: Right. Brown: So they stayed with the miss. I've been there cause my dad took me. It was one of my proud moments-- to the hearings on the FEPC Act, which he presided. That's, of course, the precursor of the State Human Relations Commission. And he's the-- well, he's considered the father of the Human Relations Commission. I remember going to his public hearing at Harrisburg and these --, this big auditorium. Uh, my dad presided to lead. But no, we didn't move. We never moved. We were always right there in the Hill District, until they died at 744 at High Street where we lived.

Snow: Did he take you campaigning around the neighbourhood and around his district at all?

Brown: Uh, no, not when I was little when he was a legislator, but I campaigned when he was running for various judicial office. Snow: I see. Brown: Fact, I was the driver for a lot of the things-- by that time, I had-- I could drive. He campaigned with Judge Saccode [ph] or Judge Brodsky.

Snow: I see.

Brown: And I had no idea Allegheny County was so large and had so many little-- so many places to visit. I mean--

Snow: Hey.

Brown: I mean, this [??] hall, this [??] place, this, you know, Oh, those poor fellows campaigning for judicial office, they couldn't say anything-- judges are not allowed to say much, you know, and everywhere they went the -- had food, they had to eat, eat, eat, eat. The food was good, but you can't eat how many meals a day,you know? Snow: Right. Brown: And they just, you know, they were-- had good spirits. And I said, [unintelligible] I said, they'd all go together. And that's, I campaigned with them then, I was the driver.

Snow: And were you always in-- in the public schools.

Brown: Yup, until I went to Yale. Madison [??] Herron Hill, which is now named Milliones and Schenley. Greatest schools I've ever been to. Much better than Yale.

Brown: Yale was a valuable experience for me. I put it down as the second choice on the College Board, my dad wanted me to go to Haverford. And I saw an article in Life magazine a few years-- The blue blazer, the gold buttons? Snow: Mmhmm. Brown: And you have to understand that those days we were wearing drape suits. Some -- were wearing zoot suits, but we were really, basically wearing drape suits. I had never saw any gold buttons on it, and all of these girls. It looked like a wonderful place to have a great time. Snow: Uh huh. Brown: I put it down second choice-- Well, Haverford admitted me and gave me a scholarship, but I knew Haverford was a-- you had to have devotionals and-- and I went into prayer and I didn't want to be a hypocrite either. And then Yale admitted me, and gave me a scholarship that covered everything, thankfully, in the one year I got a refund, about half of what the tuition was because they just-- I think they must have doubled up on the scholarships or something. Snow: Excellent. So I-- they sent me a article and a letter said that I have the preference of the roomate [??]. I didn't know where the place was.

Brown: I didn't know anything about it. And I just knew it was Yale, I heard Yale, Harvard, Princeton, you know? Snow: Uh huh. Brown: So I get up there and I look for the-- for the girls, and they have this big-- students [??] and no girls. Well, I suppose they separate them like they separate them after junior high school. Snow: Mmhmm. Brown: But we were kind of-- We'd be pretty [??]. Well, and in those days, you know, I didn't ask anyone because you didn't ask White -- if they knew, in those days [unintelligible] ask them anything. So I saw this other person. We were Negroes there, so, I saw this other Negro. He looked just like these white guys. He's dressed up with this Harris Tweed. You know, the three button, no shoulder, even like a pair. I have big shoulder pads, you know. I said, Well, he's a funny looking Negro. So I go up there, ask him-- ask him, you know-- ask him what his name is. He's my roommate out of 1200 --. Of course, they used to take pictures, so they knew what we were. They put us together.

Snow: I see.

Brown: And that's where I learned there's nothing to race. I always thought we were different. I figured, you know, he-- he didn't smoke, He didn't drink. He didn't ran around with girls. He didn't play ball. He liked-- he was a Presbyterian. He liked Dixieland jazz. I liked bop. But he was just like that. He sounded and acted and had the same attitude as all these white guys. And it's because he grew up in the White community. Snow: I see. Brown: And I grew up in a real integrated community. So, he thought I had a switchblade. He had all the stereotypes about me [Brown: Wow.] that White America had, you know? [Brown: Wow.] I didn't have a switchblade. So-- but we became real close. I guess we had came close because we had to. So yeah, and you know at the same time was-- -- like [??]. We shared a bathroom. Snow: Really? Brown: Yeah. Richard Mellon Scaife. George Bush. He's ahead of me a little bit. And Yale Law School-- I had adjoining rooms with Pat Robertson. You know, the preacher. Snow: Wow. Brown: So you have to see-- that's the [??] when I was there. And so anyway, I got ahead of myself, didn't I?

Snow: Yes, But no, it's all fascinating. I take it that hearing your family--

Brown: [unintelligible] there were no girls. I borrowed someone's bike, I guess, you'd call it steal. But I never saw these little bikes with the-- with the skinny tires and [??]. We had big balloon tires-- funny looking bikes, you know? And I-- I got a full layout of the campus, and I went to every building of the campus looking for the girls. And I didn't-- I never asked the direct questions because everything was White, you know, and I certainly could be a little colored boy walking around looking for girls. Now, I wasn't looking for white girls. I was looking for a girl. And I didn't see-- I went to the president's house, every house, every building of the campus-- took me nine days to discover it was a boys school. I never recovered from that. That was a terrible, terrible thing. All of a sudden after being with girls all my life-- what do you play football for? [laughter]

Snow: What did they answer that one with?

Brown: No girls-- I just-- I just-- pretty much tired of school. I didn't get involved with social activity, with anyone. I wouldn't have gotten into a frat or secret society. I saw Black kids try to be accepted by these White ---- just break their hearts. I have-- well, I had to hold [??] in my room for three days. He was cracked up when he didn't get into a secret society, and I told him, oh well they're not going to accept you. I had-- I was like-- see I was there seven years. So the college kids since I was there had been to college there, and I was the only one who had been there that long. Snow: Hmm. Brown: They kind of like, gravitated to me about what about this? What about that? But I think I went up on Dixville Avenue, which was like our Wiley Avenue, and hung out. And I-- I had nothing to do with-- cause if you let ---- were supposed to be your peers or your friends, draw a line on you, at any point they want to draw a line on you. That's just not an acceptable way to live. In other words, my classmates, when they want to play ball-- or study, or something like that, Hey, I was a big man. I was a very popular guy. But they wanted to go out. They skalk away and leave me. No, you can't do that. No, no, no, no, no. So I don't need to be your friend. You don't need to be my friend.

Brown: And that's-- I don't socialize with any of my classmates from college-- law school guys are better. Cause they were-- they were there more on the basis of-- or totally on the basis of-- I don't know about totally, more on the basis of achievement and performance. In other words you worked up [??] for 90% of your life to test-- You weren't getting into Yale Law School. Period.

Snow: Absolutely, Yes.

Brown: I think some of my college classmates were four generations of Yalemen. You know, their father might give you a million dollars. They're going to get in.

Snow: So it seems like, with you growing up, you said in the Upper Hill, which was mixed race. Brown: Yeah. Snow: That this was quite a shocking experience to then be forced into-- into such a minority position at Yale then.

Brown: No, I was-- I always used to integrate things. Snow: Okay.

Snow: As you said about the camp, I remember.

Brown: The only thing that shocked me was there were no girls. Snow: Yes. Brown: I-- look, Black --. We worked in White --'s homes. We do all this stuff-- little dirty stuff for White --, In those days. My family-- I was used to integrate things. My school was totally integrated. Like one neighborhood-- I tell you Josie Goroffsky [ph] lived next door, she was-- Joe Tortello [ph] lived on the other side. _________________________[unintelligible] is Black. Beverly Petchersky [ph]. I mean-- this was the most beautiful neighborhood that you could imagine. Snow: Mmhmm. Brown: We had this group. We fought-- but we didn't fight because someone was Jewish or someone was Negro. We just fought because we were mad, you know? we didn't think of race as anything controlling us or dividing us. Yeah, sure-- in terms of personal social things, we would tend to cluster, you know-- what I-- [unintelligible] I couldn't imagine being at us. And I can't imagine, you know, and I don't think the Jewish folks who grew up with me could imagine being anti-Black. They could imagine being mad at some Black --, maybe, but-- so that's-- Yale was-- it was just a learning experience. You know, you're 18 years old and there you are isolated in a sea of -- who-- who--

Brown: Many of them were just-- you know, there was the wealthy, the super wealthy. That was all right, because they had a lot of scholarship kids there, too. They just-- Well, there is a difference. And I accepted the difference. I just said that-- I just rejected that. And I never was going to get into a fraternity or secret society or any the other stuff they had. The biggest issue at Yale that I was there was whether or not-- Well, let me put it this way. The captain of the football team was always tapped to be a member of Skull and Bones, a secret society. Snow: Okay. Brown: And the secret society buildings, I thought were a bunch of furnished buildings because they had these marble buildings throughout the campus, dispersed throughout the camp-- they have no windows. Snow: Huh. Brown: I thought that's where they kept the furnaces and things, but they had a secret society. Snow: I see. Brown: I've discovered. So they'd have a building, like, bigger than this house, you know, much bigger. And-- on a Thursday night, the 15 of them getthese-- they go in there and I don't know what they do, but they all get dressed up in gray flannel and-- white shirt and black tie. So we realized after [??]

Brown: Captain of the football team, which is just like, hey, you know, how did this happen? But he was, and that was the [??]. Skull and Bones was gonna tap me. Well, he didn't want Skull and Bones to tap me. He-- he accepted it-- a tap and tapped me into it. You know what they do on tap day? Snow: No. Brown: All the -- who want to be chosen for a secret society go and get in this courtyard. And then the -- from the secret society come out and tap em on the shoulder and they say, like, I'm from skull and bones. That's what George Bush is in, I think. Snow: Okay. Brown: That's the most prestige one. And you can say whether you accept or don't accept. Okay. And it starts at a certain time [unintelligible]. My buddies would tie the clock up [??] so they could start up that. [unintelligible]. It starts at a certain time, ends at a certain time. So anyway, they tapped me and Levi for Brosilious [ph], which is another secret society. And he accepted that. Well, Brosilious [ph] had Henry Ford, the third. Snow: Okay. Brown: the second or whatever it was. So of course, when he graduated, he got a lifetime job at Ford. Snow: Right. Brown: He's still there now. He isn't dead.

Snow: Yeah, he's still back there now. Brown: Huh? Snow: He's just come back into power. I understand. Brown: Who? Snow: Henry Ford, the third. Brown: Oh, okay. Well.

Brown: [??] Levi Jackson. You know what they're gonna do? They're gonna move the Detroit Lions out of Detroit-- out of the Silverdome. Can you imagine that? The Silverdome. Have you seen it on TV? Snow: No. Brown: Gorgeous stadium, with the dome roof-- seats 80,000 75,000 people-- in Pontiac, Michigan, and the Fords are going to loose that team, because they don't like to leach [??] into Detroit. Snow: Huh. Brown: My cousin's wife, and the mayor's wife-- [??] sisters. So my cousins got into all that stuff. And that's amazing-- here this town with all-- with this big stadium-- which is bigger than what we want to build with dome on it and everything. Snow: Good grief. Brown: And they just-- they'd been there about ten years and [??] That's why it's crazy for us to build a stadium for [??]. Crazy. As much as this city needs--

Snow: Because they'll just move in a few minutes. Speaker3: Sandwich, Hun. Brown: Oh.

Speaker3: Not for you. [laughs]

Speaker3: Not until you eat breakfast. He still hasn't eaten breakfast. People coming and going all day. He hasn't had any breakfast.

Snow: He's working on it.

Brown: Is that your water [??]

Snow: I should. Let me pause this. What was your major at Yale?

Brown: American Studies. Snow: Okay. Brown: I was the first year of American Studies that they had the-- the major. And, of course, it was not clearly defined as to what it was or was not. So if I could-- Since I was not interested in anything. And I really wasn't academically interested in anything one way or the other. I took that. And if I could justify a course as affecting the American-- the American culture, then I could get credit for it. So I took Modern French Literature and the theory that the French writers like I _________________________ [??].

Snow: I think you did.

Brown: I think I did, uh, affected American writers. It's a very tenuous theory. I don't know if they really did at all. I don't-- I can't-- I don't know if Steinbeck ever read it.maybe they accepted it, you know.

Snow: Yeah, well, they did later generations. But that would have been coming out after you went to school at Yale. Brown: Yeah.

Brown: When I was in school-- I don't know if there are writers like that. Now that I'm sick, and after [??] I read a lot of books, but I don't see anything like Faulkner. Yeah, maybe there are, but I-- if there are let me know because I'm reading like a wild man now. I didn't read at all the years I was practicing law-- working and I just didn't read.

Snow: Yeah, well, that's enough on your time.

Brown: When I was in college, I-- You know, they probably still got all the authors-- Steinbeck, Hemingway-- I just don't see writers like that, you know? Not that I don't enjoy what I read, but the person [??] $1 or $2, That's it. You pick a word processor to be the right tool.

Snow: But they don't write as well, I think.

Brown: I've never been able to be a critic. There was this one fellow-- I just read a book. This guy has six masters. Call him up. I forgot his name. I thought I was. He has masters [??]like Faulkner. All about [??]

Brown: I asked that young lady to stay here. She was our babysitter. She was studying in Carnegie Mellon in writing and she said, this guy said you read the first page. He said this guy was overwhelmingly awesome. Snow: Wow. Brown: he was about to be fancy and [??] stuff. You know, I like the story, you know? Okay, well, I'm sorry.

Snow: No, that's great. I guess. What made you decide to go to law school.

Brown: Uh, at that time-- in the first place-- at that period, the only thing-- I never had a Black teacher. I never saw a Black bank teller. There were no Blacks working in the stores Downtown or sales clerks. The only place for blacks was as cleaning people-- in private homes and the downtown offices. Undertakers, were Black people, barbers, doctors, lawyers, preachers, and dentists, and you could get a job at the Mill. So, when I looked at the spectrum of what was possible, I didn't want to be a-- well I couldn't be a priest, although we were going to set up a church in New Haven. I was supposed to be a-- this is the way we raised money. I was going to preach about [??] to pass out, act like I got saved.

Brown: We had a lot [??] But anyway, I didn't want to be a doctor. My grandfather was a doctor, my uncle was a doctor. And being a lawyer was just a passive-- path of least resistance. I mean, for my father was a lawyer, my uncle was, and so I didn't particularly think that was cool or not cool, it just happened out of-- the first real reason was that I had to try to put things into some scope to make it look like I had some great plans for life. I didn't. I just had to be somebody. They had a student defer. Snow: Okay. Brown: Yes. I just had a career. Snow: Absolutely. Brown: [??] right before or right after that. And if I didn't go to some private school, I still would get drafted. Snow: Right. Brown: And I definitely didn't want to go to the army. So I went down the street from my residential [??] she was a residential [??]. I saw this place called Yale Law School.

Snow: Excuse me one second while I turn the tape over.