Patrick, Dr. Leroy, December 3, 1973, tape 2, side 1

Speaker1: The tri state region. May be playing down Pittsburgh in the process.

Leroy Patrick: I don't think you can play down Pittsburgh. It's a hub. This whole region depends upon Pittsburgh's-- Pittsburgh's prosperity and Pittsburgh's identity. We are the capital for what? How many of the national corporations are located here? The Steelworkers union is located here. So that-- it's the key. It's the hub in what I see should be the expansion and the growth of this area. That's why it's so important to make this city itself a healthy city. And I think that here again, Pete could have assumed the-- what the leadership of-- the hegemony of the, of the entire process. If he had, if he had seen this as a role, which he wanted to play, that is Wheeling is a sort of satellite, Aliquippa, Johnstown, even Erie, though it's a little off the distance. But all of them, when you think of Western Pennsylvania, you need to think of Pittsburgh. And Pittsburgh is healthy. And I think we do have to diversify more than we've done our, our, our economy. Then we would have we would have a healthy Western Pennsylvania. Now, I'm not for the sky bus in its present form. But I think we got to have some sort of rapid transportation in this city. You can't have a metropolitan area where it takes you three buses to to get from Northside to, to Homewood or at least Southside to Homewood. You know, it doesn't make any kind of sense.

Patrick: And it takes you two hours, because I had members who lived over there and used the trolley to get to church and they had to leave home at 8:00 in the morning to get to an 11:00 service because they missed one bus and they can't get another one for so and so in such a long period of time. So when you say what about Pittsburgh in this whole West Pennsylvania complex, I think it's the key. And I don't think we can build up a Cheswick or a New Kensington or a Beaver or a Farrell or a Sharon. I think they have to be satellites of what's happening in, in Allegheny County. And I really don't see the leadership is addressing itself to that kind of problem. Neither the business leadership, although we do have our Southwest regional industrial cooperation and so on, those other kinds of things which they've, which they've started, but none of them is putting the money behind it. I'm convinced that if we had the same will to do that as we had to clean up the triangle, that there is sufficient power and money in Pittsburgh to do it. Because after all, the, the, the triangle was cleaned up because the Mellon proliferated, proliferated interests wanted it cleaned up, and they had a political organization which was willing to go along with it. I just don't see that in the present time.

Speaker3: Uh, don't you think, though, that the hope for Pittsburgh and the area in general, especially in the job market, would be on a regional level? That that could, uh, build up this whole area? I mean, jobs are the whole thing. What it's all about, really? If there-- if you can bring some money into the economy and if it can be done on a regional level. So that you-- because Pittsburgh is itself is too small. There just aren't enough jobs created--

Patrick: Oh yeah, within the city proper. Speaker3: Yeah. Patrick: I'm thinking about metropolitan Pittsburgh, and I suppose if you wanted to extend it, you're perfectly right. But I'm saying that that anybody who goes, who goes to live in Beaver or Farrell or Sharon or Aliquippa or any of these outlying areas, look to Pittsburgh. The persons who go to that place look to Pittsburgh as a place where I shall enhance my cultural life, my business life, etcetera, so that you come here for the opera or you come here for the symphony and you come here for for other things. And you've got to have-- things that are good enough, including an educational system that, that, that would attract. And that isn't true. So are you quite right that we-- the jobs have left the city? And it may be that, that it's just as well that we put some plants out in these other places. But who is working on this? Who's putting money into this?

Speaker1: Well they certainly are. And they-- I don't know whether you were not able to go, I suppose, to the annual meeting of the Congress. But they--

Patrick: Obviously, I didn't hear the speech however, but I had the dinner. It was a good breast of chicken dinner. Speaker1: Yes. Patrick: Which I always value because it's free.

Speaker1: Well, they talked about the regional city, and we've had Jack Robin here who was also emphasized in his very-- as much too. Generally talking two areas, one that the county would assume larger portions already is of the leadership in major governmental functions like planning or transportation and environment. As a matter of fact, Robin listed a dozen functions that were normally thought of as essentially having the leadership of the city with other areas following to being now [??]. He was really sort of trying to put together, and I guess this is on the agenda for the next year coming up, a public educational program for us to realize that we are part of the county or the region. This is-- we need to maybe even have, as you suggested at one point, the county Home Rule Commission really be a way of changing the names around. So we might have a mayor for the region or some other acceptable name, that kind of thing. And at the same time, we try to de-emphasize the city by the fact that it has a smaller and smaller portion of the total regional population, that its authority is pretty much limited internal to the city. And that's one kind of picture that you get. So that Pete may be an obstacle, but don't pay any attention to him because essentially we have a a county. Facility to county government to provide that leadership so we can become like Toronto, Dade County and so forth. Just--

Patrick: He saw the present kind of leadership as affording.

Speaker1: No, he didn't. Speaker3: Structure

Patrick: But he sees that--

Speaker1: Oh yes. He puts a big emphasis, too, on the importance of working at this over time. Put together the structures and systematically transfer the power and--

Speaker4: This-- I think this is very important. Don't-- have, haven't you ever seen a paradox in something like this. For instance, we're seeing now in American cities, particularly the northeastern American cities, that the emergence of, of a Black power. There's a Black mayor in Atlanta. New York has a Black mayor, Gary, Indiana, and in all of a sudden in Pittsburgh-- What's the percentage of Black people in Pittsburgh.

Patrick: Well, roughly 18 to 20% of the city. Speaker 4: Okay 18-- Patrick: 9 to 10% of the county.

Speaker4: 18%. Now, as, as White people are beginning to flee, it would seem that that Black political power would seem to be emerging. And this seems to be a trend throughout all northeastern American cities. Now, when, when Black people are beginning to emerge as a political force in cities, we're starting to see this emphasis on, on metropolitan governments. We're starting to see exactly what Dr.-- Speaker3: Do you think, do you think it's a plot? Speaker4: I'm not saying that.

Patrick: Dilute our power.

Speaker4: But but don't you think that that's somewhat of a paradox. And I'm sure I'm sure there are many Black people and and I'm sure there are many working class White people that are, that are feeling the same thing I know in my own community where I've been brought up. Patrick: Where is that? Speaker4: In Carrick. Patrick: Oh, okay. Speaker4: A white working class community. And I've heard this time and time again and there seems to be this, this basic antithesis and-- not an antithesis but antipathy.

Speaker3: Antipathy.

Speaker4: That's right. For-- of, of White working class people and people in the suburbs, people that have stayed in the city and that have, that have made a go of it. And I think that's why, why for the first time, at least in the White classes-- in the White working classes that Pete Flaherty has emerged as a, as a people's mayor. He's a, he's a people's mayor to the guy whose father was born in Poland or Germany, who at least in the instance of Carrick, who, who lived in the Southside, and all of a sudden he's moved into Carrick and maybe the next step is the suburbs. But I know a lot of people don't want to go, and I think they're beginning to feel that they're basically a part of the city. Now if you relate this to Black people all across the northeastern United States, I think that Black people are reaching a base of political power. Now what this metropolitan system is going to do, is just going to. Just make their power a fraction of what it is today. Don't you see a paradox in some people?

Patrick: Well, if the, if the political boundaries are changed, yes. It's going to take some doing, however, to change political boundaries. You may get a regionalization under the current boundaries, but everything, every I mean, not every but every time you hear the word metropolitan government, people rise up in these little boroughs, rise up in arms because they want to hold on to that thing. Are you saying that we're going to get metropolitan government?

Speaker4: Well that seems-- I don't know if the conference's point is a matter of political boundaries or a matter of functions, but it seems one and the same thing to me. If city functions are taken away, that means lack of city control.

Speaker1: Or at least initially, in terms of where the emphasis can be placed. There seem to be several things that are suggested by your. Number one, there really doesn't seem to be any place where systematic planning and follow through, you know, can be maintained. Again a leaf out of Robin's book. We need 15 years to plan the fountain down in point. It just doesn't happen tomorrow. We need to have a lot of the studies that went into this and follow through on it. And not only is this a problem for Blacks, as you illustrated, but it seems to be a problem for the middle low income city dweller, whomever he may be. Patrick: Yeah. Speaker1: And the possibility of somehow trying to get a social political planning mechanism, where the various ethnic groups might have a chance to communicate a little bit and look into the future, and to think about this politically would seem to be a very important kind of institution.

Patrick: I think if the conference were to direct itself to that and-- put some staff on to try to get it moving so that it does not happen haphazardly, that in the course of the 70s that might be, it might emerge out. I don't see the initiative coming out of the ethnic communities themselves. I don't think that there's enough vision there.

Speaker1: As a matter of fact, is there any, any place at all where there is communication? I have the sense that there just really is-- not that there's hostility necessarily. There may be this latent ability to mobilize fears. You certainly seem to have the sense that, that is a [??], though when you look for specific examples of it and you go beyond the busing situation, it's even kind of hard. Patrick: Housing. Speaker1: Housing, to some extent, although Blacks seem to be, as you say-- Patrick: dispersing there. Speaker1: Yes. And they're moving kind of in the Penn Hills direction. Patrick: Yeah. Spaker1: you see, and not really in the Lawrenceville and other places where the chances of them moving there would not hardly exist. So that it may not-- it may be that the suggested hostility between these groups is really just non-contact.

Patrick: Could be. Could be. Speaker5: Do you remember I mentioned religion and the ministers.

Speaker5: I see a strong emphasis is being placed on the-- Ethnic center or Ethnic group by the different clergy. With the demise of their membership and the turning away from the younger generations. From this, the older minister, the older priest is intent on holding that ethnic group together, at least to support the parish and the church. So he's putting more of a, more of a cramp into the process of maybe getting together. And I think he-- he may be doing this unconsciously, but I doubt it. It has to be a conscious effort, it's part of, to hold this group together. And that's what I meant when I asked you what part of the religious leaders as well as the realtors blocking the Negroes and advancing into the other section. Or, even the thought of a metropolitan plan. The Metropolitan plan really doesn't have to negate the-- Black power structure that we're pushing. I don't like, he said, political, that would be-- I feel that that's, that's a paramount thing, that religious part we haven't analyzed and looked at it.

Patrick: Maybe we haven't looked at it as carefully as we, as we should. I don't get the feeling that the that the Black clergy is consciously trying to prevent the--