Patrick, Dr. Leroy, December 3, 1973, tape 1, side 2

Leroy Patrick: --feeling that with Mr. Tabor's advice, the board had decided to live within their means, regardless of whether we serve the people or. And money just is not that valuable to me.

Speaker2: Well, don't worry. I had to bring this back to my memory because I'd forgotten what was written here. But I'm like Dr. Washburne. I can, I can, I can't, no, I didn't see anything in here. It mentioned something about some personal, direct and impersonal-- direct and indirect personal attacks.

Speaker1: Oh, well, I've had those, too.

Speaker3: Would you like to read it to us? All of us who didn't read it. Speaker2: Do you want me to read it? [audio cuts]

Leroy Patrick: --tipping point beyond which if you go the number Blacks get that the community goes Black. Parts of East Liberty are still White and parts of East Liberty are still Black. I live in on Mayflower Street. There, there are, it's this, this section is largely Italian. My street over the time that, that I've lived there has become-- there were maybe six of us there when I moved in, has become now fully Black, except for two families who remain. But there are still pockets of Whites as there are pockets of Blacks scattered around all over East Liberty. Now, Homewood would not be considered anything except a ghetto. Uh, Penn Hills. At least the lower part of Penn Hills is still integrated. Now, I'm some of my members who live out there tell me that they see more and more signs-- for sale signs going up. So I suppose when the decade of the 70s are out that O'Malley's words will be true, that it's going Black. If the mortgage money remains as hard to get, I suspect that it will be somewhat longer, too for, for, for Whites to flee. There are sections of what? Monroeville that's integrated, a good number of Blacks that moved out there in recent years. And that wouldn't be considered-- it would be considered an integrated community . Speaker2: Highland Park. Patrick: Highland Park, Yeah.

Speaker2: The question I have is-- it keeps coming up as far as geographical boundaries. What is your boundary line of the Homewood area? Because we were trying, you know, when you start talking about Homewood, then you get into Point Breeze and you're getting into Squirrel Hill. What are--

Patrick: Well, I know--

Patrick: According to the census tract, Homewood takes in-- What? Thomas- McPherson Boulevard, that area. And Thomas is now pretty well Black. Uh. Certainly it does-- it would not go to Penn Avenue. I suppose you'd say from Thomas on, on down beyond the railroad tracks and on, on out would be would be Homewood. Generally, Washington Boulevard is thought as a dividing line. But here again, part of East Liberty. Ward 12, which is Liberty Ward, is in is beyond Washington Boulevard. So that there is a there is a living line. And then there are the, there are the-- Speaker2: I'm talking about the living line. Not the, the-- Patrick: Well, the living line, I would say, would be Thomas Boulevard on back up as far as the Penn Hills line, Lincoln Avenue. Uh, on back to-- one side of the Lincoln Avenue would be considering East Liberty. But-- and according to the census track, both sides are East Liberty, but livingly, Lincoln Avenue would be the dividing line there. Uh, Upland Street on the other side. Unidentified Speaker: What more do you feel that the realtors, plus the religious leaders ______ in keeping Pittsburgh a predominately ethnic city? ____________________ it's all or going __________.

Patrick: Well, the realtors. Oh, I think the realtors are the culprits. I don't think the religious leaders have much to do with it. Yeah, the realtors are the, the culprits here. We've had the fair housing law of the city, one of the first city in the nation to have maybe the second to have a fair housing law. But my friends who knew realtors would tell me the ways that they would get around showing Blacks White dwellings and they still do this, you recall or maybe you don't recall, but Milo Manley told me Milo used to be with the State Human Relations Commission, that friends of his in Pittsburgh-- in Philadelphia, he lived in Philadelphia. A friend of his took him once into a bank, and they had a large map of the city on the wall and said, now don't repeat this, but this section we have marked out as the next section in which we will allow Blacks to move. And the realtors know this. This section will not be open to them. Now, when they get into this section, the houses are already old, of course, because they don't move until the houses are old. But I'm saying it's that kind of, of uh, oh, in house realtor wise in house device that they use to keep us out.

Patrick: And unless a Black is very persistent, as you well know, he simply will be discouraged and, and not, and not get the house that he wants. Now, if he is persistent, he will get it. But that takes a lot of doing. And many Blacks says, what the hell, I don't want to be bothered with that. So now I don't think the religious leaders-- well, it may be I shouldn't say that because mother of good counsel, which is about four blocks up the street from the-- it's now in a Black community , when the community was going Black in the late 50s, the priest did go. His parishioners were living around there. I am told, he didn't tell me, but I'm told by one of the parishioners that the priest went from house to house telling them, now let's keep this thing, let's keep the Blacks out because we don't want them in here. So let's not sell our houses. Of course, over the course of time he failed, but he apparently was successful for a while. So it may well be that some of them are like that. And I presume O'Malley would know since he gets a chance to talk to them.

Speaker2: What about Holy Rosary? Holy Rosary did the same __________________ did they go for it faster or slower than [??]

Patrick: Holy Rosary is still a-- supported largely by its White parishioners who come into the community out of allegiance to that parish. They have Black parishioners and their school is totally Black. They-- the Roman Catholic Church has a, a pull on its membership that the Protestant church does not have. We can move from one Protestant church to another, and it doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the form of worship. May be slightly different, but not really different. But it's apparently the, the ethnic parishes among the Roman Catholics have a real pull upon their membership. So though they do not have enough coming into the parish now to support it and the and the way in which it once was supported and the using some of their endowment monies because they spend a lot of money on on their school to keep that school going. Uh, as we learned when they came to Pace to get some money for some special things that were doing there. It went much more slowly and it is still a viable white congregation with some black membership. Of course, any black many, most blacks are not Roman Catholics anyway. If you leave Louisiana and some of those southern states, most blacks are. Protestant and Baptists.

Speaker5: Would you talk about the politics, briefly?

Patrick: Yes. [laughter] I just finished chairing Tom Harper's Citizen's Committee. Tom is re-elected to the Court of Common Pleas, as you may remember. I chaired his committee when he was running as as Recorder of Deeds when Pearce beat him. Pearce never has gotten over the fact that having beaten Harper out for that $20,000 a year job, Harper was appointed to a $40,000 a year job. [laughter] I say he got it because-- I meant we had a cocktail party for Tom a couple of weeks before the election, and Pearce was there and I was talking to Pearce. You know, we were kidding. He might do this thing again. And I heard this man's voices really apparently made an impression on him. Uh, um. Well, I have been interested in politics because I think most Blacks, if they're going to be relevant, have to have to be interested in politics, at least the minister, just to try to get a handle on what's happening to his people. As I said, back in Delaware County, I was when I came here, I was-- during the 50s, we had what was called the DUA Democrats for United Action. I believe, something like that. Anyway, it was a group of us who were meeting together and trying to promote Black candidates. And in the mid 60s, I think it was 66, a group of us organized what we call the Pennsylvania Black-- no it was the Pennsylvania Negro Democratic Committee. It must have been 65, 66. It became the Black Democratic Committee in about 69. We organized this Democratic-- Pennsylvania Democratic-- Black Democratic Committee to try to get some input into at the state level, because we don't have anything.

Patrick: We didn't then we have something additional now. But then we didn't have very much at the state level. We-- I recall the convening letter went out over, over my signature. And a group of us met in Harrisburg and we said we were not. We wanted to do one thing only, namely to get some Blacks into state positions of importance. That first time around, we, we, well we wanted to try to get the State Committee-- to try to get an audience with the State Committee to have the State Committee slate a Black for lieutenant governor. And I wrote the State Committee chairman and he sent word back. He did not have time to meet with me and that made me angry. So I determined we would have a sit in in his office. And this was just before the primary in 60, 66. And I got the letters all ready to go out, calling my people together from all across the state. We got to sit in in the headquarters, you know, that'll make a nice television story. Black sitting in the Democratic headquarters and all that. Well, I didn't follow-- didn't get follow through with it because some of my friends said, no, Pat, that's not the thing to do. We, we'll, we'll work it. And I learned later that they'd gotten to the fifth floor of City Hall, city-county building.

Patrick: Joe Barr was then the mayor who'd gotten to Washington. Dave, Dave Lawrence was then in Washington-- White House who got to the state chairman. At least I got a telegraph, telegram. I'll meet with you tomorrow morning. Well, tomorrow morning, I just couldn't go. I don't know what I had. I might have had a funeral that I had that day. I don't know. But I couldn't go. Anyway, we didn't get the ordinance and we didn't get the lieutenant governorship. And then we had we went out supporting the the the gubernatorial candidates. We were determined that we couldn't really take sides in the primary because I was for Casey and the Philadelphia group was for Jack. He ran in 60 and he ran in 66. And we got together and raised some money. That is, we contributed money. We and we presented Jack with a check for $1,000. And that's not on much money, but $100 is a lot of money to me because I'm just a poor preacher trying to make it, you know? And when you get us together and we collected $1,000 and we had Shapp and took a picture of us giving, giving this check to him. I learned later that this was the only group which had given given Shapp any money, only Black group. All the others were. It's all. And I told Shapp, you know, it's alleged that you do have money and it is said that he has some money of his own. But we want you to know that we are serious.

Patrick: If you win, we're going to be knocking on your door. This is after the primary and general election is running against who was at the Schaefer? Uh, I think well, at any rate, we didn't we didn't win, but we managed to keep the group together. And that takes some doing to keep group together when you have no, no, no winners. Well, we kept meeting sporadically. You can't meet regularly because all of us are busy people. Then at the next gubernatorial election, we met. We again and you recall again it was Shapp versus Casey. And again, I was up for Casey. I don't know why I wanted to back a loser, but, uh, and the Philadelphia group was out for Schapp. Uh, and after the primary, when Shapp had won again, we again presented him with some money, again out of our pockets because we had no, had, we had no fundraising events that raised any, any substance of money. And then Shapp won this time. Well, Shapp in winning helped both himself and us because the next meeting I called, I was elected chairman because I lead the group. I was not being coy and not being coy that really at this point in my life, I had no political ambition at my age. But, but others are younger in the group. And so I was sort of neutral person. That's why I guess they retained me as chairman and, you know. Speaker2: Also you speak very well. Patrick: So we got to chat and we said we wanted three cabinet positions.

Patrick: Well, we didn't get three, but we got two, you know, Dolores. Secretary Dolores Tucker, Secretary of the Commonwealth and Stella's secretary of Health. We wanted really a-- the secretary of community affairs, because here's where some money is. You know, somebody can do things in the community . And we brought a man in from Howard, whose name escapes me at the moment, who-- because we were trying to get, you know, top flight people. We want to recommend somebody to the governor. He's got to be somebody who can pass muster and not just recommend Joe Blow. And I recall going to Harrisburg and interviewing this, this person and he was interested and then talking to Shapp about it. But apparently Shapp had made some deal in Philadelphia. So the present man has that, you know, the secretary of community affairs. But you know-- Wilcox yeah Wilcox who has been a good man that is. So we got that we got the two deputies then we said now we hadn't had a meeting. We had a meeting in the airport in Philadelphia, one of the motor hotels there right after the election. The executive meeting got together and we looked over all of the boards and commissions to see where they were vacancies when they were going to occur because we had done our homework beforehand. We said, now we want to get this deputy, we want to get somebody on this commission.

Patrick: We want a bureau chief over here. Et cetera. Et cetera. And we had this kind of thing done beforehand. So when we went to Shapp and talked to him, he was quite agreeable because he felt he'd been, in Philadelphia, quite a fair minded person. He-- his secretary was Black way back then when it wasn't, it wasn't-- he's currently his personal secretary, when it wasn't the thing for a White executive to have a Black secretary, he's had this Black woman as his secretary. So he was he was not a difficult person to deal with. You see, he was sympathetic and has remained that way, except that he's got the squeeze on the political processes and squeezes on him now, as you well know. So we were able to get-- so I think we have five deputies now and we have a number of bureau chiefs now. What's the problem is that you never-- when you get a person job, you make one friend and you make five enemies because you think you should have the job. You think you should have had it and you think you should have it. And why did he get it? Well, so in that way it has been both good and bad. But that's. that's, I think, always is the case. Well, now, uh, the, the, the Black Democratic Committee then has, has kept a low profile. We haven't been able we have not tried to be a grass roots organization in the sense that we wanted a lot of people.

Patrick: That's for the-- well, I went out to Gary in 70, 71, two years ago in the next meeting is in Hot Springs, Arkansas, when the National Black Political Convention was held out there, which was a massive thing, what some 8000 people in which the the nationalists had done their work and they came and and manipulated the, the convention and got their resolutions through so that today Baraka Imamu Baraka is the secretary general of the of the organization and they are-- well, they continue to meet. They met here in Pittsburgh just this past fall. But that's a mass organization now. And the mass organization we set up what's called the Allegheny County Black Political Convention, where, again, I was asked to be chairman and we held a convention this past year, 73 and the first convention in 72, the-- at which time we we tried to bring in the whole county. And this last time we tried bringing in the Western Pennsylvania, the whole west part of the state. The, the value of it I see is it's a step in helping Blacks to begin to realize what our potential is. The, the Blacks have meant the difference between winning and losing for the Democratic Party in Pittsburgh and in Allegheny County for all these many years. But we have very little to show for it. Very little. They don't-- we don't get anything out of the party. I said, Tom has just been elected judge. When, when that bill was up to, to create the judgeships. 25 in Philadelphia--

Patrick: Or 8 in Allegheny County. We went to Shapp. When the bill was-- before the bill was passed we said, we want two of these spots, two of the eight of Allegheny County for Blacks. And we agree so that when the bill was passed and the Black was appointed, Tom was appointed to this spot. Our-- I don't say I appointed Tom because I didn't, but at least I had some input. And similarly, this past year, when Livingston Johnson was appointed to this judgeship. But a judgeship is a prestigious thing and it has symbolic value. But in terms of, of its, of its ability to get things done in the community, we we simply haven't had those kinds of offices in, well, anywhere in Allegheny County or in the state. Now we wanted these key persons in the state because we, we've known that a bureau director or a deputy can do many things which would slip by us who are on the outside. If you don't pay attention to what's happening in the, in the bureau, these things which, which will-- our boards our commissions, things which will be of value to Blacks simply don't get done. And that's why we wanted key persons in these spots and things that have been happening there and those places which have not happened previously. Now in Allegheny County, we have this political organization then called the ACBPO, and as the chairman in this past primary, for example, in the city, I called together those seven Blacks who were running for councilman.

Patrick: You know, we have five vacancies in council this year and there were seven Blacks who filed to run for city council. So I called them together in my church and said, now listen, we know all of you can't be elected because only five spots so that two persons are certainly not going to be elected. You know also that some very strong people are running. You have you have Amy Ballenger, you have Lynch, you have these other folks are running. Why can't we withdraw? And let us say, let's, let's just two remain in the race. Not everybody just two you know, we spent two and a half hours. George Shields was there and we came out one person only-- with one person only willing to withdraw. That was Tim Stevens. He did withdraw. Um, the other persons said, I know I can win. I know I can win. The little fella here in the law school. In the Pitt law school, what's his name? He's a second year student in the law school. I've forgotten his name. Now, a little fella who was quite sure he was going to win because he had the student power behind him. Uh, Anderson was sure he was going to win because he had been the leader in the streetcar strike here two years ago when the Angela Davis thing was much in the news, you remember. And the Blacks had been wearing this Angela Davis button and they put him off [Speaker2: Oh yes I remember]

Patrick: And then and then there was a fracas around that. Bill Anderson was the leadership in that. It was one of the leaders and I met him then and talked with him and helped him out there. He said, I know I can do it because the people know that I'm for integrity and everybody knew why he was there. Well, as you know, all of them lost. Speaker5: Who were the two you met? Patrick: Huh? Speaker5: Who were the two that you proposed to run? Patrick: Oh, Shields and Jackson. Shields because he was committed-- he was by the party. He was endorsed by the party. And Jackson had drawn the first place on the-- in the ballot. You know, the number one spot, which I'm told is always good for 10,000 votes. People go out and vote and they don't want to vote for anybody else. So we've gone to back, back those two. Well, it just happens that Jackson lost and Lacina came up from behind and overtook Shields and that 16,000 votes that those other Blacks pulled out, I think a good number of them might have gone to Shields and Shields might have been-- might have won. So that today, Shields would go out of office. At the end of this month, we'll have one Black on city council who is the president. [Speaker5 speaks] And that's, that's the, that's the scuttlebutt that he'll go out as president when they reorganize in January. So I can't say that we've had very much success in politics, but it's been an interesting, interesting thing. Interesting thing.

Speaker2: The president of the Council becomes mayor. ___________________ The president of the Council becomes [Patrick: Yeah] acting mayor.

Patrick: That's, that's, that's the reason that's being spoken. Speaker5: That's why he's going to be [??] Patrick: Yeah, that's why it's going to put him out because if he does leave and he gets out of the mayor's office and the president of City Council becomes the mayor. Speaker5: That's why-- Patrick: And Pittsburgh is not ready for a Black mayor yet. I don't know.

Speaker6: It's not ready for Lou Mason. Speaker7: It's not ready for Lou Mason. Patrick: Well, maybe you're right. Maybe. Maybe.

Speaker6: I think there are better Black leaders. That there could be better Black leaders than--

Patrick: Well, yes, I, I-- Speaker5: Well, I don't know.

Speaker6: What are your reasons? Speaker5: We had the [??] who was mayor. Patrick: huh? Speaker5: He learned everything he had ____________ just like Mason could learn learn too.

Speaker3: Well. Trouble is, we will take much more incompetence out of Whites than we will out of Blacks. No. You want to lift a Black up? Everybody knows why he shouldn't be the person. You know, I've been in. I was there when Pat Fagan was the president of the Council, and Pat Fagan, the president of City Council? And before before Pat, the other fellow. Good Lord, he couldn't even read. I mean, I was sitting at an ACCR dinner with that man and they had written a speech for him in type that, that large because he had bad eyesight and he couldn't even read that. So we-- Speaker6: Yeah. You're right. Patrick: But now it--

Speaker5: I want to go back. Patrick: Yeah. Speaker5: I really find it, kind of shocking your discussion of Pittsburgh as a southern town and then the illustrations that you gave of the swimming pool incident. And I do recall also that one of the interviews, there were some similar discussions that many areas of the city particularly Squirrel Hill Closed until maybe 58. There is also this interview with Dick Jones who talked about the-- how late it was before Black teachers were hired. Patrick: 38. Wasn't it? 38? Speaker5: 38. Yes. Before they hired any Black teachers. How do you-- how do you account for that slowness of development of-- opening of the city.

Patrick: I think it's partly due to the fact that we, we have not had an influx of new Black blood since, what, the First World War, or maybe part of the Second World War. But when we came in, we came in to work in the mills and the the old Pittsburghers, I just think were thoroughly intimidated. This was, you know, if you work for the Olivers, you really had a splendid job, though. You were you were the man's chauffeur. But you were, you were, you were something else. If you worked for, for any-- you lived over the garage and you were-- you had a steady job. So I-- in my, my experience with the old-- with the indigenous Pittsburghers is that there was not a lot of initiative there. They seemed to have borne up under the system and didn't, didn't feel that the system could be challenged and they were not the influx of new Blacks to challenge it. Those who came in, as I said, were were not of that-- what, equipment? intellectual equipment and so on. And since Pittsburgh had no free school, just community colleges, you you really couldn't get a-- you couldn't get an education here. This was a not only discriminatory in its policies, but it was expensive.

Patrick: And so that we didn't have Blacks who could go to school here. And the Blacks who went to school didn't come back here. So I think it was just that there were, there was, there was just this dearth of that, whatever it is, to start a movement or a revolution. That kind of that person wasn't around. And then, of course, you have the-- what is it? We have 27 or 127 ethnics in this area who have their own insecurities, which makes it terribly difficult for them to, to accept. They've got to be 101% white in order to show that they are American. So I think, I think those were factors in keeping us backward for such a long, long time. If you look at the leadership today, I think you'll discover that much of it is come in within the past-- oh, 10, 15 years. The others have not given up on leadership. Speaker2: The key is education. Patrick: Oh, absolutely. You got to have education. You just have to have that. And if you don't, these indigenous movements, the maximum feasible participation, says the OEO broker. But you have to have somebody there who can think the thing through and know where we move next.

Speaker2: Do you think that Joe Rhodes is still-- responsible to Pittsburgh and his congressional district. Because I heard of a couple of ways to go up in Chadwick And he was going on about his-- that bail, bill, the schoolboarding bill that he was talking about it and-- Patrick: Yeah. Speaker2: That-- it went into the budget.

Speaker2: That was-- that had nothing really to do with him. But, uh, this whole fail thing just really frightens me. I just can't sit. I'm just wondering how-- is it possible?

Patrick: You don't agree with it-- you. You do not agree with it?

Speaker2: I don't agree with that bill.

Patrick: Oh, no. Well, I disagree with you. I think that that bail system is one of the most heinous--

Speaker2: I can see reforms in it but not in no bail system.

Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. That, that is-- he has a pulse of the community when he sponsors a bill like that. The bail system has worked havoc on the Black community. The average person-- simply has to go to the bail bondsman. And you know what that costs. And he doesn't have the money. So he's caught up in that kind of, of non-justice process. So I think Joe has-- Joe is one of the I think one of the coming lights if he keeps a level head he's gotten-- he's a bright young sucker. I heard him Saturday night on the New Kensington. We were there for a law awards. The Kensington branch of the NAACP. The Allegheny Kiski branch was sponsoring this award to the Black policeman in Kensington Lower Borough. Those old boys out there. And Joe was our speaker. He did a very, very good job on a difficult subject, because what can you say about policemen, as he said, What can you say about policemen today? And then Black policemen who are on the firing line and must be responsible to the Black community and yet must be policemen out here. And he did a very, very good job, said I have I didn't support Joe, but I'm going to support him the next time. I didn't support him because I was a friend of Harold Davis. And I told Harold I would support you, Harold. And when Joe came to me and said, I want your support, I said, No, I can't give it because, you know, Harold's my buddy. Both of us have been president of the Renewal Council together, and I just couldn't turn my back on my buddy, so I didn't support him. But I really admired the young fella and think he's doing a good job.

Speaker8: What about the-- the perhaps not the emergence. The emphasis of Black culture in the city. Do you see this? I think we're seeing this somewhat, especially in White ethnic groups. But, but I'm sure this is even more so when it comes--

Patrick: Well, I think that's been the best thing which has happened in the Black community since Dubois. There is this emphasis upon Blackness in itself as being a thing of which you need not be ashamed. For too long our Blacks have been ashamed of being Blacks, and we thought that if we could become semi-White then we would be accepted by whites. And we now know that that's not true. And we know that being Black is, is uh, is just as good as being White. Now, we may, maybe take it to the extreme. I don't think it's better than being White. I think Black is beautiful, but White is beautiful. Yellow is beautiful. You know, so that I think once we get over that, that particular emphasis that if you're Black, that everything is is all right, and because you're Black, then you can excuse everything. I don't think you can excuse Incompetence in any public official or any other one else because the person is Black. But I think the emphasis upon Black culture that is reading the Black literature. You know, I was in high school when I discovered I'm from slavery and I was-- it's not much, but for me, it was a it was a sort of eye opener because I went from there to look at other things. I think I read some of Herskovits things and some other things and and our kids then who will wear their fro and be proud of it. I admit those plaques are something else. But, [laughter] but I think we'll get all those plaques even.

Speaker8: But what about what about Pittsburgh specifically? Would-- Is there do you see an emphasis on on Black people in the city of Pittsburgh trying to find out what their role has been, what their history has been? For instance, when you were talking about Uh, education. I wonder how many Blacks, uh, in in the city of Pittsburgh know that that one of the oldest Black colleges-- One of the first Black colleges every established in Pennsylvania, was established on the north side of Avery Street and things like this. Speaker9: Can you say some more about that Joe? I didn't know about that either.

Patrick: Avery Institute.

Speaker8: Yeah, right. Patrick: Yeah.

Patrick: Well, I'm sure that that's that's been lost to us, except for the, the, those members who are in the historical society. There is not, there is not a-- maybe Avery never made enough of a splash to have made a name for itself in the, in the Black community. Blacks were depressed for such a long time in Pittsburgh that um, much of its, its contribution, much of the Black contribution to Pittsburgh is not known to us.

Speaker8: But you don't see a-- Annapolis is coming back on this. You don't see anyone that's really attempting to look in.

Patrick: Well, there's the, there's the what? The the, the, the historical society, the Black one. Walter Worthington's group that that tries to do this but without any funds to put out publications what-- it can't do but so much.

Speaker5: One thing that you could refer to-- we interviewed recently Selma, Dr. Selma Burke. Patrick: Yeah. Speaker5: Who is attempting to provide with the Selma Burke Center a place for artists, which I think has a certain prominence to it. She also talked at great length about the H. O. Tanner stamp that she designed and Tanner himself was a Pittsburgher and he in fact was not really known too much. Uh, there's at present time-- I understand that the university is planning to have one of the rooms here to be an Afro-American nationality room-- in the cathedral. And I know that Maxine Bruhns has been meeting with a number of, of individuals around putting that together. I think that there is a growing interest in this subject. Ron, I interviewed this past week, Reverend [??]. This was really a quite interesting interview too about the history of Western PA and the Church. Do you want to say something about that?

Speaker10: _______________ went to this university and we were going through a _____________ the war. She was doing the, uh, research into their history and the Pittsburgh area. Even dating back to the 1845 [??]. And, boy have they had in Pittsburgh extensiving landhoarding, which on today's market worth millions of dollars. So there is an effort going forth to go into that background and the contribution that Blacks of African made. Then again, getting back to what you said. They have seen so very little from the establishment.

Patrick: Yeah, if they could publish some of this stuff. I look at the Richard King Mellon Foundation annual report from a couple of months ago. We're looking at about some $7 million last year, And I try to check and see how much money is going into Black. If I put in Action Housing, I think I counted up $375,000 out of 7 million. You know ____________. But other things were tapped out over here, and something over there and so on and so on-- school in New England. But they give their society some money. Somebody who could spend some full time on research, then give them money to publish the research. We'd get somewhere with that.

Speaker9: What about the renaissance? That, the Allegheny County-- in their expansion into social involvement. Were you involved with any of that.

Patrick: Only peripherally. Only peripherally. They talked a good job and they put a little money into some of the businesses. They put enough in for-- to ensure failure, but never enough to ensure success. By ensuring success, I mean, not only giving them-- letting them, giving them enough money to start a business, but giving enough money to get a good inventory and then to keep it going for six months or 18 months while you try to get a business together. And to my knowledge, they've never done that. They've put 18,000 here and maybe 50,000 over there enough to ensure failure.

Speaker2: It's not a true commitment. It's not a true commitment is what you're saying. No, I'm sure that what you're saying is true. I felt that. He's laughing. I'm the biggest establishment person in the class.

Speaker5: What are the possibilities of better communication between the Black community and other ethnic communities? You mentioned the fact that this 101% Whiteness to be in America is a problem. Are there any possible breakthroughs in that areas in which there might be some cooperative relationships? I noticed, for example, that Black leaders recently entertained. Wallace of Tuskegee. And then this has been mentioned by the Black Political Caucus. Pragmatism would be the policy we follow. If it is true to some extent that Blacks represent an important swing possibility. Would this not be worth pursuing some ways in which there could be liaisons established?

Speaker11: My grandson said he was the only one that could beat Pete. [laughter]

Speaker12: That was last year. He's not doing well enough this year. I'm just being facetious.

Patrick: I don't know, Larry. I-- on the political level, you could get some conversations like that. For example, in the, in the 12th Ward where I live, we've always had an-- oh, I was pretty good friends of Chippy Stout, the Ward leader, and the other people out there. At the political level, these politicians are kind of realistic. If you could bring in the votes, you, you can talk and deal. Now, you have to watch them because everybody in politics is out to get you. You know, you're out to get him to. But if you leave that level, I suppose the only ethnics are the Jews. That, that, that I have met in all of my goings around town. The bulk of them are-- whether it be in education, because for years I chaired the NAACP Education Committee before the establishment co-opted me and put me on the board. Then, uh, but and the Jews were the first person with an interest in this Allegheny County Council on Civil Rights that, uh, that I chaired at one time. Here again, the, the, well, the Jewish Community Relations Council was-- gave a staff time for, for this. And the persons who headed the committees were Jewish men or women. Now, I haven't seen that kind of openness on the part of the Polish community or the Italian community, except that the-- at the political level and I just don't know if if they are yet sufficiently sophisticated and feel that they have enough control of their own destiny to to be willing to, to do this. To share this this kind of conversation with us is how best we can promote the interests of Pittsburgh. It may be there. It's just that I haven't run into it.

Speaker5: Do you find you say something about how Pete has been into.

Patrick: Pete has been a disappointment to me. I was-- we had a political rally in my church when he was running for council, the first time I first met him. It was way back there when, um, oh, Warren Watson was first running, running at that time. And I liked the guy. You know, he has a sort of freshness about him and an appeal that that he had. And then he became mayor. And he has-- he has suffered a personality reversal or else a personality has come out that wasn't apparent before. So he, in these days have been able to polarize the communitiy. The crowning blow to me, I was willing to go along with him when he was reducing the payrolls because I know we have-- every political organization has more payrolls than they need, but got to keep these people on the payroll so they get the votes for you when you go out. But I could go along with that. But when he came before the school board last winter to speak against busing, when in all-- and I've been on there for what, four years now? None of the other problems facing us ever has he come to talk to us, either in public or in private, on how I can help you with these problems? But to take this time to come and play to the galleries the way he did, I think makes him anathema for the growth of this city. And God help us if he should be able to win the governorship. I'd say you go down to number 49--

Patrick: Among the 50 states, I guess Mississippi will always be ahead of us. But Pete has, Pete has has flubbed what I think was a splendid chance to brought a new image and a new condition to the city because we were all tired of the war of the of the bossism of Lawrence and then of Gobar [ph]. Gobar [ph] was less flagrant in manifestations of it than was Lawrence. Pete had an opportunity, I think, to pull this city together and to move it ahead in bringing new industry in and pulling the business tax into the industrial--