Patrick, Dr. Leroy, December 3, 1973, tape 1, side 1

Lawrence Howard: --it might be included. Sony and I were talking just before you arrived and we were just sort of running down some of the range of topics that would be-- we'd like to touch upon, some of which I hope that I really talk with you on the phone. Patrick: Yeah. You've been-- you mentioned some of them that you wanted me to talk about.

Leroy Patrick: I tried to remember what you said.

Howard: Why don't I just run over some of those things? some of the things that were of interest to us. For one thing, we're very interested in looking at Homewood Brushton as a community. Ms. D'Angelo, for example, is interested in the general subject of community development and is doing her paper on that general topic. And that would be-- it seemed to us of interest to have at least one person coming from the class and would have had some first hand on the ground experience with the general subject of community development. Certainly Homewood Brushton is an area in which community develop has been talked about for a long time by a lot of people. So that was one of the topics that is of interest to us. They're also very much interested in housing. And Mr. Brown, for example. He and I have been interviewing a number of people in the general housing area. And so, again, it seems to me that it would be highly desirable to have someone who had an interest in housing, especially housing for Blacks in Pittsburgh, which for Mr. Brown is a specific type of interest to talk about a specific project, how you got involved in the project, how it grew, what relationships you had to the packagers to put it together, what the non profit sponsorship looks like, what problems you're having, how it's working out, What's what does it feel like to be an owner of 300 units? So all of that area seemed to me to be an area of interest that we would like to touch upon.

Howard: In a broader context. Much of-- much interest here has centered on really what the what the Renaissance meant. What, what did changes in Pittsburgh since 1940 mean, especially in the lives of people? Did they participate in this in any way? Were they affected in a positive or negative way? Has it been of benefit to them as people? We know, for example, the contributions that's made to the Central Business District and the visual changes in the environment, but what has it meant to lives-- in the lives of people? And also, more specifically, how do you as a Black leader fit into all of this? A person who has had involvement not only with the church, which is an important institution in terms of social will and the development of community, but also personally involved in politics and in democratic politics, not only the city level, but the state level as well. National level to some extent, too. Uh, you're certainly-- the experiences that you must have had in Pittsburgh as a consequence of the riots and especially the emergence of organizations like Pace, which came out of that which you had something to do with. Patrick: Yeah. Howard: There are so many topics here. It seems to me that, that seem to, to relate to, uh, to your experience that I would-- didn't know quite where to begin, but I thought I'd place to begin might be this. If you could start out by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you got into Pittsburgh.

Patrick: I'm the minister of the Bethesda United Presbyterian Church. I finished Lincoln University, which is the oldest Black school of higher education in the world, started in 1854. It's in the eastern part of the state. Howard: That's right. Patrick: I went to Union Seminary for my theological work. Union Seminary in New York City. Which seminary emancipated me spiritually. [laughter] I pastored in Chester, Pennsylvania during the 40s. And came to Pittsburgh in January of 1951, which means I'm almost accepted now as an old Pittsburgher because I've been here almost 23 years. But I have always been interested in social problems. In college, I was editor of our school paper, for example, and we had a-- Lincoln University is a-- right near Oxford, Pennsylvania, near the Delaware, near the Maryland line. And we were-- we had the dual school system in the Lincoln University Village. It has its own post office. And there was the the Blacks in the little one room school and the Whites had a somewhat better, not a whole lot better, but somewhat better building. And I recall having my photographer for the paper go out and take pictures of this and publish them in in the in the Lincolnian and then sending copies to the governor and the Department of Labor and Industry, Department of Health, and having all these people in Harrisburg coming out to see Leroy Patrick. There's nothing more heady than to be a senior on a college campus, you know, and have people looking you up, calling you out of class. You really feel like you're you're doing something. Well, I left school and what I went into--

Howard: Was, uh-- was, uh, Nkrumah there during your time?

Patrick: Nkrumah was a classmate of mine. Yeah. [Howard: He was the] We lived in the same dormitory.

Howard: --founder of, you know. Patrick: Of Ghana.

Patrick: Um, so I continued this interest in Chester when I became the pastor there. That is NAACP schools and other kinds of things around that community, housing. When I came to Pittsburgh, I really determined to, to get out of that. I didn't make a conscious decision. But it's a time consuming process to do a lot of social activity and pastor a church. And I became involved against my-- not my better judgment and not against my will, but against what I had determined to do because when I came here, Pittsburgh is a southern town. And the school system, the well, the swimming pools were segregated. We had the Aikwell [??] on Washington Boulevard and we had the Highland Park pool, which was the pool for Whites. And of course, there was Sully's pool in the South Park. We could go to North Park pool. Howard: 51. Patrick: In 51. We could go in the North Park. We couldn't go into the main pool in the South Park because there is Sully's pool out there, which they are going to close I see in the papers because of budgetary restrictions. I'm just giving this little background to see how I got pulled into sucked into this because I, I-- and you must stop me because I may get off on tangents and I want you to get what you want out of me today. It happened in that first summer. I came in January. In the summer of 51, we had what was called a youth camp, denominationally sponsored inner city youth camps. And they were coming to Pittsburgh. They came that summer. Youngsters, White youngsters from all over the country Chicago, New Jersey, California, into Pittsburgh to do some things in churches.

Patrick: They washed the walls in my church, they wash windows in another church. And they were going to finish that week with a, with a swim in at the Highland Park pool. And when the announcement was made by the leadership who didn't know the problem that this posed for us, the Blacks, my church kids. When the announcement was made, my kids came to me after the meeting and said, What shall we do? We can't go to the Highland Park pool. And I had not been here long enough yet to be intimidated. So I said, oh, we're going to swim in Highland Park pool. [laughter] Now-- then I began to inquire around, you know, what's the problem here? Why are my kids so uptight about this? And discovered that indeed we could not swim in Highland Park pool? Well, I promised them we would swim. We had then in the city, in the office of the mayor, what was called the Civic Unity Council, which became in the 50s, the Fair Employment Practice Committee, which became in the 60s, the Commission on Human Relations. So I talked to Chris Motz, who was the director, and said, we're going to swim in the pool. And I talked to Reisdorf, who was director of Parks and Recreation, and said, we're going to swim in the pool and I want you to have as many policemen there as you think necessary to keep [laughter] us from having our faces bashed in, uh, and on.

Speaker3: Did you swim in the pool? [laughter]

Patrick: Yes. We finally swam in the pool. We got-- the Saturday that my kids said we were going to swim in the pool. We were meeting in the rhododendron grove there. I told my kids to bring their suits and the girls and boys. And I got to the kids, and the White kids weren't around. They had gone on in or hadn't got there or some such reason. I don't know what happened to them. At any rate, discovered my kids, about a dozen kids. Only one kid had brought his trunks. But he said, I have two pair. So I grabbed him and the kid standing nearest to me and said, Are we going in the pool? Because there are about 50 policemen around. It looked like a battalion, you know, blue shirts, blue motorcycles. And the lieutenant was asking me, Where are your-- where is your group? And, you know, I'm getting nervous because the kids hadn't shown up. So I grabbed them and we went into the pool. One was a kid about my complexion. Another one was a very, very dark Black. I've never been so happy to have a dark Black with me as I was that day so that it was evident that Blacks were swimming in that pool. Well, as a result of that, and it's a whole story in itself. But I was asked to serve on the board of the NAACP and to chair a swimming pool committee. And we went into the [??] pool where we were stoned. We went out in South Park and so on and so on. And then I was asked to chair the Public Accommodations Committee, which meant that we tested bowling alleys and restaurants, which wouldn't serve us because we couldn't get service in restaurants in the-- not from Downtown but in the area. The little metal grill at Larimer and Meadow Street, for example, wouldn't serve us. And so I did all that testing with that and bowling alleys. We--

Speaker3: Pardon me, what was the date of this?

Patrick: We are talking now about 51, the summer of 51, the winter of 51, 52 on into the next summer of 52. And my involvement continually proliferated. And then and this continued through the 50s. In the 60s, early 60s, there was organized under the aegis of the NAACP, what was called the UNPC United Negro Protest Committee. Early 60s, in the middle-late 60s became United Black Protest Committee. They changed. And I chaired that construction-- its construction committee, which meant that it was a job of my committee to get bricklayers and skilled craftsmen on the, on the various projects. We went out to Stanton Heights. That heights is a built up community now, but way back there they were just putting in that tremendous housing project and no Blacks were were in the crafts. The high rise here in the hill off Center Avenue. No Blacks.

Speaker3: Are you telling me about the, the project or Stanton Heights itself?

Patrick: I'm talking about the project which is built in Stanton Heights. You see, there's a shopping market and then there's a housing project. There's a high rise, and then there are many other dwellings. I'm saying while the high rises go on, the, the City housing authority is putting in the high rises-- these other buildings, and they had signed their contracts that they'd be nondiscriminatory, but they were not enforcing this. And it was my job as the chairman of the construction committee to try to get them to enforce it. And there and in the Hill, I was arrested in the, in this high rise here that's off Center Avenue in the Hill. What is it the Bentley drive high rise there, for example, when they were putting that up. But-- because I wouldn't get out of the way of the truck. I told the police tomorrow morning, you're going to have to arrest me or else we're going to stop this job down. So he arrested me. Well, that's-- one thing led to another, and I found myself becoming more and more involved. Politics the same way. Way back in, I left Chester, Delaware County, which is a rock ribbed Republican area. I went with Dilworth, Richardson Dilworth, who was running for, for governor in 50. I went around Delaware County with him in the, in the car because we were Democrats and my people thought I was crazy. But he didn't get elected. But um-- in fact, few of my people ever got elected.

Patrick: So I came here with a letter from Al Crawford to Dave Lawrence, who was the mayor of the city. And I went and had a chat with Dave Lawrence, you know, one politician, in quotes, to a politician. Howard: Yes. And we were good buddies until I started really getting involved in these other things. And Dave Lawrence didn't like it. I grabbed Dave Lawrence one day, for example, after a luncheon that, that, that Al Hillary [??] group was having. You know, her group have achieved a group to have the annual luncheon. And Dave Lawrence was there. So I grabbed-- the guy's getting his coat and said, now listen, I'm going to write you an open letter if you don't. I forgot what the problem was now so and so and he flayed me and I flayed him, you know, I was younger then and more-- arrogant, I guess. At any rate, our friendship sort of ended at that point. So during this period, this, this city was in the midst of its renaissance. And I think everyone admitted that Pittsburgh's done a good job at physical renaissance. And the-- I'm glad that we've saved the Triangle and glad to see a civic arena. And I guess I'm glad for Three Rivers Stadium, I guess. But little has-- was done during that period for the Human Renaissance. We, we think we got most of the people from the Lower Hill out in Homewood when they demolished the Lower Hill. Those people came because they had no other place to go.

Patrick: So the Homewood now is the-- well, it's getting to be almost a first largest ghetto. I think it's beginning to approach the Hill in terms of its of its population. And when the East Liberty redevelopment was to take place, I was able to get on the committee, which started way back in 56. Bob Pease, who was development, DRA, director at that time. Bob Hawes, Mannesmann, Mannesmann store out there. Hahn, Hahn Furniture. There was a small committee which met in the Shady Avenue Hotel to begin talking about the need for Renaissance in East Liberty and what we were to do. And I kept insisting in every meeting, not only I, but Bob Hawes at King's House and others that we've got to see this time, that we don't just uproot people without letting them find someplace for them to go. Uh, and at least a more serious attempt was made to, to relocate people. It wasn't fully successful, not wholly because of, of the fault of the relocation authority, somewhat so. But some people started to panic. And the non-homeowners or renters, you see just started to get out and go where they could get because they heard you were going to tear up Harvard Street. You're going to take care-- tear up Sinclair Street and so on. So a good number of those people came into, into Homewood. So the, the, the, the dislocation in East Liberty was not quite so bad.

Patrick: But then it was bad enough because Homewood became even then more crowded. Well, at-- during this period. And my church relocated from East Liberty into Homewood. We were in the urban redevelopment area. I'm in a very large structure, four levels of auditorium, a sanctuary that seats 1200 people, which I don't need, a gymnasium that had not been used for a generation when we, when we went into that building, because the White congregation who was there refused by policy, the board of elders refused to admit Blacks so that the church, which was a strong church in the 20s and in the 30s, began going down, down, down and in the oh, in the late 50s, the congregation had dwindled to somewhere around 150 with a worshiping group of 50 to 75 and a 1200 member sanctuary. And when their minister left them in 59, the presbytery would not allow the congregation to call another minister because it was doing a disservice to the church, to all of the church and so forth, and gave the feds the opportunity of moving into the building. We suggest that they merge with us, but they didn't. They merged with another White congregation in Homewood, which lasted for two more years, and that congregation merged with the third one. Now at Point Breeze, Fifth Avenue and Penn. That's where the remnants of that congregation is. So I got into Homewood then as-- 61, as one of the ministers of the community. The bulk of my membership had always lived there.

Patrick: The center of gravity for them had always been home. We did a study of our membership and discovered that 80 to 85% lived out there. So while these-- I was doing these other things, Homewood was not was not idle. Bill Howell at the-- who was then the director of the boys Club had started what's called the HBCIA, the Homewood Brushton Community Improvement Association, which still exists. He's had a great big dinner at the twin coaches here last, last month. Uh, they were getting together homeowners to try to keep up their property because as the people were coming in, of course, the whites were fleeing. And, and many people don't keep up-- particularly renters don't keep up their properties. At the same time that, around the same time the HBCIA was started. This is a block club organization. It still exists. There's another one now called the OBB, Operation Better Block. Jim Gibbon runs that, and Jim was able to get into the community chest last year. So he he has some stability of funding there. There was organized the Homewood Brushton Citizens Renewal Council. This council was started by Action Housing, which moved into Homewood to do some pilot things. It had some Ford Foundation money, and it was an attempt on the part of Action Housing and the Ford people to see what could be done with the inner city community to keep it from from deteriorating as badly, for example, as the Hill had deteriorated.

Speaker3: Pardon me? About what year was this?

Patrick: Um, this was about, about 60? It was just before I got there. 59 and 60. See, so that the renewal council had been started before I became officially a part of the community in the sense that I was there every day as a pastor. HBCIA about 55. So it it had some-- it had started and was had some solid foundation by this time. Uh, Renewal council in time in 64 became the CAP agency because Homewood became, well, it was number four on the poverty list. You know, the Hill first, I think Manchester second, somewhere else there in East Liberty third and Homewood number four. I never understood why Homewood was number four. That was some hanky panky somewhere along the line. It should have been number two, but maybe number three after Manchester. I don't know if you've been to Manchester. That's, that could have been number one in some respects. Well, the renewal council was started. It became the Cap agency so that it had not only a a relationship with Action, which had some funds, but with CAP. OEO in 64, 65, 66 had some some real monies to fool around with, not very much came out of it, but it did have some real money to it. And we then-- sought to do, oh, a number of things. No, we had what we call the Community Services Committee, which meant-- that was the committee which had to do with city services, just getting the people to pick up the garbage and sweep the streets.

Patrick: You don't know what a tremendous problem it is. And maybe you do know that just to get these city services to come around and, and pick up the trash on a regular basis and then there is always an inordinate amount of trash, it seems that, that comes out in in the ghetto. So we had that kind of committee. We had a public safety committee. We continually were going to number five and to the various directors of public safety trying to get beat policemen out there. Then there was the-- a housing committee. And we were working with with the housing authority to try to get some new housing. And there is now what's called-- and to get Homewood certified as a redevelopment area because no money has been spent out there in the years when the people were working in the Hill and Lower Hill and downtown, that became-- it did become certified as a housing area and Homewood North. The Galvanic Project are a result of that. The Kelly Street highrise, the result of that, that housing committees. The HBCIA not this case the Rural Council, but HBCIA personnel, for example, are responsible for the Homewood Brushton Neighborhood Health Center. Whatever you say about about Wilbur Nelson and Novice Miller and Reynolds. And so those, those, those people really put hours and hours of time in, in trying to get projects like that off the ground.

Patrick: You have to be prepared when you go into community, organization work especially, to spend hours and hours when you feel that you're just spinning your wheels. You know, you you go over and over and many trips Downtown and trips to Washington, rewriting proposals. But, you know, we do have now a Homewood Brushton neighborhood health center. We do have a, a, a high rise on Kelly Street. We do have the Galmarnock [??], new housing developments. In the late 60s, I think it was 67 or 68, I asked my session, that is my board of elders, to have us form a nonprofit corporation to do something in housing ourselves. By no means was the housing need being met. Action had done a little bit of it out there. Then Action, as you know, spun off or was instrumental in forming Arco. And we formed this nonprofit corporation with me as president and with my elders as the board of directors. There was some talk of making it a community kind of thing, but you can deal with the core people that you're working with all the time, but you bring in a lot of other disparate elements and the-- poses another kind of problem. So we formed the Bethesda Corporation-- and we sought to, to then to get some, some housing going.

Patrick: Well, we had no money to put in it. My church has a lot of-- I know in New York for example, there's a lot of different kinds of-- had a lot of different kinds of programs and still has. We've had a, I suppose, a quarter of $1 million budget, 20 to 30 to 40 people for the past oh ten years I suppose. But all the money that comes in like that are earmarked. You can't use them for this kind of thing. Then I went into Arco, talked to Mill Washington, and they were looking for nonprofit sponsors that would be recognized by FHA. FHA has some requirements-- longevity likelihood of remaining for 40 years around, and some responsibility and insight on the part of its board and so on. We were certified by FHA as a nonprofit sponsor, and I agreed that we that, that the board agreed that we would we would go into the business and for each project we have four projects, five projects, 350 something units now. First unit was 141 houses. We had to set up a corporation for that same board, but the different corporation for the state purposes. FHA purposes. Uh. Bethesda Homewood Properties, Beth Home, L Home, Bethesda, Wilkinsburg Properties. These are all homes in Wilkinsburg. And now we have-- at least we did have until Nixon came out with his moratorium, a fifth one that is about-- that was about to get off the ground.

Patrick: So the the the-- and we-- when we went into it, Arco agreed to purchase the properties because they had money to do it. And then we would pay them when we got the mortgage, you see. Then we agreed to hire Arco to do the rehab work. So these are all rehabilitated homes and the, the units cost to rehab from nine to about $13,000. Well, some of the houses are in pretty bad shape. If you buy a house of $3,000, you know, it's not much. And it takes a lot of it takes a lot of money to fix it up. We have been in that business now for the past five years. We at first were going to manage the houses ourselves, but FHA allows only 6% of the mortgage for management purposes. And it doesn't really-- it doesn't mean that there is enough money to to open an office and pay a competent manager. It's going to have to pay a man 15 or $18,000 to do that kind of job. If you're going to get a good person going and get an $8,000 man, then you're going to get an $8,000 job, open an office clerk, all that sort of thing. It didn't warrant us after we after we sat down with the figures and saw how much money we would need and how much we were being allowed. So we agreed to contract it out to Arco. And that was really a blessing because I had begun to get calls from people who heard that Bethesda was in the-- was now both buying houses and renting houses.

Patrick: And they were calling me to-- you know, I want to get on the list. When can I come, When can you talk to me about getting housing? And with all the other stuff that I have, I couldn't, I just couldn't get into that. So now when the calls come, I simply tell them we have nothing to do with it. The contract is Arco's. Now, if this is a person that I know and you really need a house. And I'll say listen Larry needs a house, you know, [laughter] But that's the way it happens in every situation, isn't it? You know? You know how that happens. You, you, go on. So Larry gets a house, and I heard he got a house. I don't know anything about it. So that's been-- it's been a very happy situation in the sense that we have been able, in that way to to make available many, many decent homes for people. Now, one of the needs is for social services. But here are people going into a house which has been newly renovated, rehabbed. They have lovely walls, they're all clean, they've been furnished, new stove, new closets and so on. And the family has to be some of them has been taught how to, you know, how to take care of this property.

Patrick: And for a good while, for about three years, I had what we what was called a family service unit, which was a a program subcontracted under United Family Service. And we could use these workers to to help in cases like that. That program was phased out finally because the state would not continue to fund it. They said that the federal regulations do not allow it. Federal regulations went into effect on the Weinberger in November 1st. They phase it out in August 31st. So I was talking to Milt only last week about our need to to try to get some monies. We do have some monies in one of our projects to allow us to have a-- some sort of social service component in, in these projects. But it takes more than-- this money only for one person for one year, and that's not going to do it. So that whole area is one which the government has not really addressed itself to. Um, but it, it, it, it helps. It helps the community. Now, Homewood was a thriving community in 61, and the early 60s. Homewood Avenue did a $9 Million worth of business. Today it's, it's I suppose if it does $200,000 worth of business, it probably $200 worth of business. It's, it's a, it's doing well because all of the stores well moved out in 68 partly because of the riots.

Patrick: We went up, and I don't say we, but at least many store windows were broken. It's something to see. Guardsmen standing on the corner of Frankstown and, and Homewood Avenue and Bennett Street and Homewood Avenue. And there are full war regalia. I recall going through the area in that that period. Very sobering sight. So you had store windows broken and you had merchants intimidated. The, the, the stores, uh, were told they had to get Black workers. All very good. But some of them were just mom and pop stores. The five and ten did get its Black workers, but by the time it got around to that, the East Hills had become a fairly flourishing area and the trade had moved to East Hills by large. The haberdasheries, the little notion stores and the others out there had simply closed up and moved out and we still haven't come back. Two, three years ago, I. I had heard of this. All of this money that the life insurance companies have to put into the inner city, if you can get some local money to do some matching. And I hosted a dinner and not a dinner, but a luncheon meeting at the William Penn Hotel with my-- I had my session do it to which I invited some of the top business, industrial, and foundation leaders. I've gotten to know many of these people through the years working on various boards.

Patrick: I've been on Red Cross board, Salvation Army Board, the chest, and you get to know them and the foundations and people. I invited them there. We had a firm out of Washington come in and do a study of our community, a firm which had done something that is a packaging firm, which it had done something in Indianapolis in which they'd gotten the, the power structure interested in rehabilitating the community. I was trying to see whether we could get that kind of interest here. So we had all these people present and they ate my lunch, which cost me $275, I think. And I had a, I sent them and I said to them in the letter, it was on my stationery that this is not a device to get you here, to make some surreptitious pitch for money for Bethesda, but for the community in the city, which I think could stand some real help from persons like you. And then we had it pitched so that the slide presentation and all of our things would be over, that they could leave by 1:30 because these people if they come at 12, they want to get away. They want to be on leave by 1:30. Then your meeting is is simply shot. I thought that we did a real professional job and we did, you know, Harold Tweedy, first federal, all these people these-- and you know they listen and yes that's very nice.

Patrick: But I couldn't get a single-- I couldn't get any movement out of those folks. Well, it was costing-- we needed to get something like $500,000, which would have floated a three and a half million dollar something from the, from the, you know, the prpoerty insurance that fund that they had set up and I couldn't get a hold of that kind of money. So now Homewood is slowly trying to get back it-- Homewood South. I speak of Homewood South. That's the Frankstown Avenue to the railroad tracks. It has been certified as URA area and we were beginning to meet last fall. Richard Adams, who directs the office out there, was calling us together because finally money will be released to do something to Homewood South, as has been done in Homewood North, the galvanic homes and some new housing and some business money. So 1,000,000 point 8 had been released. Then came December and the president's executive order. The thing just stopped. I-- it looks like it's going to be stopped until we get Nixon out of the White House. And since he's not going to resign and they're going to be slow in impeaching him, we may be stopped for the next three years. Lord help us if we can't get him out. But the Lord has his own slow time schedule. If he'd take some advice. He would hurry things up from time to time. [laughter]

Patrick: So at this time then, Homewood is not not doing as well as we would wish to have it do. Although HBCIA is still active, the new account is still active. The new accounts, for example. I think the one substantive thing it will have done is to open that skating rink $184,000. We had 80 some thousand from OEO. We had a foundation that put in some 20,000. We borrowed the other from the bank, and we took the old car barn there. We pay a dollar a year rent for it. We put this money in and refurbished it. And we have now the Greater Pittsburgh Coliseum, the skating rink. But it's a beautiful place. If you ever out there, you must just stop and look at it. It's really tremendous. And, uh, the, the children use it by the hundreds every week, really, by the thousands. But it can accommodate, I think it is 900 per session. You have children using that thing by the thousands. The Ardmore Rink out on Ardmore Boulevard is what was formerly used as some of you may know, or Bridgeville. Now, the kids use our rink. I doubt that any White kids will come out-- be coming out in any good numbers because Whites are still afraid to come to Homewood for some reason. Uh, I don't know why. Are you afraid of Homewood? Howard: No. Patrick: All right. [laughter]

Speaker3: I'm afraid of Homewood sometimes.

Speaker3: I'm afraid of Homewood Sometimes.

Patrick: Well. You're going to be afraid of any part of the city sometimes.

Patrick: Yeah. Any part of the city at night and even in the day these days. I visited Mrs. Clarence Burrell, who was the wife of the minister [??] Baptist church on the corner of Paulson and Mayflower Street, who was coming home at 1:00 two weeks ago, and kids grabbed a pocketbook, knocked it down. They kicked her. She had to go to the hospital. It was 1:00 in the day and this is a-- this is not a bad area, this is not Homewood, this is East Liberty. You know, this is East Liberty. So I can understand why why persons are afraid. I remember in 68, we we've had for a number of years a tutoring program in our congregation, in our church, in this community center that is that was sponsored by the Council of Jewish Women. And in 68, in the summer of 68, was the riot you see in the fall, the women came to me to ask, was it safe for their kids to to come to Homewood? His White kids and the Black community. Well, I at that time had two staff persons who were White. My direct presentation [??] and my assistant minister at the time were White. I said, I don't think we have any problems here, you know. This church has not been molested. We've been robbed. But we never-- they've never been any problems. All churches are robbed these days. We don't-- [laughter]. So after talking about it and I think somewhere around late October, they agreed to have the kids come back in and never any problems with any of those kids who were coming in. And there must have been, oh, 15, 25 of them during the course of that winter season coming in and never any problems. But I'm not saying that you can't go out there tomorrow and get mugged. You know, that's the nature of the city anytime. So when you say you're afraid. Yeah, be careful. My wife doesn't walk out anywhere at night, you know, And I'm pretty careful where I go at night when I'm not in the car. Well, now, enough of that. Suppose we talk about-- about politics.

Speaker3: Could I just ask one question before you get off the subject? Patrick: Yeah. Speaker3: Um, what's the-- what's happening with the population in Homewood? We know that it's difficult now to do anything for the business community or for housing because of the moratorium. But what's the population? Is it-- are you losing people? Are you gaining people? Is it is it the same? Patrick: We are. Speaker3: Are you overcrowded?

Patrick: We're overcrowded because there are so many abandoned dwellings in Homewood. And-- but the population is, is not growing a great deal. There has not been, as you know, any big influx of Blacks into Pittsburgh because we're not on the main artery from anywhere. You've got to really want to come to Pittsburgh to ever get here. You just you're not like Cleveland or Philadelphia. So that-- we don't, we've never had that big influx of Blacks from from other from the South, for example. The population is relatively stable. We have more and more people going into Penn Hills, those who who can, flee. But by and large, it's a stable population, A good number of them, one would call, I suppose, middle class. If you say the civil servants, the teachers, the federal workers, the, you know, the post office people, the department stores, the Mill people who who in terms of income would be considered middle class no matter what their other orientation might be. There's still a large number of those. We have a large number of DPW people. About 20, almost 25% of the population is on public assistance. We have a large number of, of, uh oh, older people. I don't know what the number would be. It'd be, I suppose, between 500 and 1000 out there of whom some very small number would be in that Kelly Street highrise, because that's a project for the older people. So the, the population is not diminishing the problem in getting a business going.

Patrick: There is now it really has to be a specialty stores and it, it probably would have to be some sort of chain because the the whole avenue, in my judgment, has to be torn out and rebuilt. We really, really need to make Homewood Avenue a some sort of mall that would that would allow for sitting along. This is done in part of Liberty sitting along the the stores and and tearing out those old buildings and putting up something that's attractive because people are in the habit now going to East Hills or East Liberty, you see. And therefore this has to be a kind of specialty area with, with a higher degree of, of, of police protection to because the, the some women even before the stores finally moved out were somewhat afraid to go down on the avenue because what happened to the statue of the pocket book will still happens out there and it is happening in other places. But that problem, that kind of thing will mean that, in my judgment, we just can't put up a store here and a store there. We've got to do a massive job. And when I've been asked this question, I said we need to clean out all of the avenue and put in some attractive buildings with attractive surroundings, with the kind of focal point that will draw people and attract people to to it.

Speaker4: Uh, Father O'Malley, the pastor of Saint Joseph's Church in Manchester. He told me that he believes that there's no such thing as an integrated community. He said communities are either Black and White or going [audio cuts out] calls and tells me that. Called me on the phone first by surprise to get a telephone call from him.

Speaker4: But he called me just an hour ago before I came--

Patrick: There's something-- there's something that happened that you probably don't know. We have some of the city. Political figures insist that. The top people, including Dr. Shiva, must meet with the people of this center and offer us some help. And this is the way that he's trying to get out of it. I didn't know Mr. Grant would give him a thing like this, and I hope that's not the point of his speech. But this I expected.