Robinson, William Russell, February 7, 2002, tape 3, side 1

Michael Snow: This is tape three of State and Local Government archives Interview with Bill Robinson, State Representative. I was wondering about some of the big issues that seem to have come up under the Casey administration and the Ridge administration while you were in Harrisburg. Well, when you've been in Harrisburg and one in particular would be how abortion played out in your district and reproductive issues.

William Russell Robinson: I voted against the Abortion Control Act of 1990. I voted in favour of a woman informing the father of the child. I believe that teenagers should have to tell their parents and get their consent before they have an abortion. But I voted against the Abortion Control Act of 1990. That was an act that its fate was known before we started, that it was going to pass. I didn't talk to one legislator that changed his or her mind based on a debate. I didn't talk to one legislator that wanted to go through the debate. They all wanted it to be over. Snow: Really? Robinson: Let's vote. Nothing's going to change. Can we move on to the next thing? That's probably the toughest vote in Harrisburg, other than if we had to vote on integrating everything. I mean, actually integrating like school busing, that-that's the issue where I think people are where they are. I don't think people change very much. It's excruciating. It's uncomfortable. And in Harrisburg, we pretty much let the women handle it on either side. And the men, we just sort of stood back and voted. And the vote, I believe, came out the way it was going to come out. Well, I guess we're going to be it's going to be about 30, 35 votes against it. And the rest of the people are going to be for it.

Snow: Did you take much flak in the community for.

Robinson: None. Snow: None? Robinson: I'm blessed with a very diverse constituency base. About 25 to 30% at that time of my constituency base was of childbearing age. Young women, some black, some white. And it was a constituency base that allowed me to take positions on various issues where an issue as controversial as that, the either way I voted, I would have I don't think I would have taken a lot of flak. There are a lot of representatives in Pittsburgh. It's not like you're in a rural community and you're the only one. There's a couple of dozen of us around here, you know, And but no, I didn't take a lot of flak over it. I got a lot of letters, pro and con, lots of them, tons of them. But it's almost evenly split from my constituents right down the middle.

Snow: I just wondered because several years before that, when Planned Parenthood had tried to build a-a facility in Homewood, Brushton, Bouie Haden had charged them with genocide. Robinson: I remember that. Snow: And I don't know how much those sentiments were still going around.

Robinson: Well, I think that sentiment probably existed in the African-American church, but the African-American church was not very active in that. I found that the African-American church in this town, while there's some political pastors as a institution, they're not politically active. They are activated essentially by white politicians. Black politicians depend upon black church membership because black church membership is a voting membership. And I don't believe all church people follow their pastor politically. Obviously, those pastors have a great deal of influence, there's no doubt. And it's better to have them with you than against you, particularly if you're right. Some politicians would think it's better to have a person with you when you're wrong. But I think that. It never became clear to me that that was the issue that they were going to take on politically. But I think that was in their-their tradition not to take on a lot of political issues in the black community to sort of kind of stay back. And I don't know whether it's because many ministers have tried to get them more politically involved and they haven't been very successful. And I think it's because a lot of these ministers are independent in the black Baptist Church. There's no, there are no bishops, Snow: Okay. Robinson: There are no cardinals. There are no popes. So you don't have a horizontal, you don't have a vertical structure there for for leadership.

Robinson: It's horizontal and everybody's independent. And also, I think because-we as politicians, as black politicians, have never given to ministers an agenda. Our agenda. One which they could evaluate either scripturally or spiritually or personally. Things just happen. It's like this whole thing of stopping crime in the black community. There's this hue and cry when black life is lost. Senseless shooting, senseless killing. I don't mean to be indelicate. It's not senseless shooting and senseless killing. It's very purposeful. The people doing the shooting just aren't very good shots. They haven't had any training. You know, they're out here spraying bullets around. Some of it, is showing off, instilling fear. It's very purposeful. It does have a purpose. You know, these people are engaged in criminal evil activity 24 hours a day. That's what it's all about. And those of us who are not as surprised when someone comes up on us and kills somebody we know or somebody we care about. And then we start talking, Oh, we got to do something. Yeah, we got to do something. Well, what is it we got to do? What would Jesus do? What would Jesus tell you to do? It's not that complicated. The complicated part is whether we're willing to do it, whether we put it in the time and the effort to get it, to get it, get anything done. If the black church in this community ever becomes mobilized in this region, becomes mobilized and directed politically, look out.

Robinson: Whether it's for a white candidate or a black candidate. Or for a female candidate or for a preacher candidate. Look out. Reverend Sims has been very successful as a minister getting elected to county council. Now, the president. In large measure, because of his base in the black church community, he hasn't made a big issue out of it. But getting the confidence of black pastors and them feeling that he will be able to help them do the kind of things they want, they want to get done. I've always had a good relationship with black pastors and been able to convert that into some votes, but also have a pretty good relationship with most black churchgoers. I know a few people in a few churches and able to cobble something together. I've probably spoken in more African-American churches than any other place outside of my official capacity. You know, it just, they used to kind of trouble me because I guess I wanted to be invited other places. I wasn't invited there, for whatever reason. I was invited to these churches and I would always go large, small otherwise. And I said to myself, This is where you're supposed to be. So, hey, say here what you'd say somewhere else and just keep on going.

Snow: What's been the obvious thing for the churches to do in terms of fighting the crime?

Robinson: Well, I think one of the obvious things is for them to look at root causes. Criminals. People who are outside the law. Their spirit is such that they believe the way to be successful is to do evil. And to be successful at it. And so they do that. Pastors know that the way to be successful is not to be evil. And so I believe they have to create circumstances, not just spiritual circumstances, but they have to create real life circumstances where people can act out their desires in a positive way. Some churches are getting involved now in what's called faith based initiatives. Mainly, social service programs. Trying to heal broken lives. I would hope that some of the churches here, and it's been done elsewhere, would get in programs that would keep lives from being broken, that would build lives, that would create for people the dignity that comes from the one means by which God has given all of us to get what we need. And that is w-o-r-k. A four letter word to create opportunities for work. And the best way to create opportunities for work are to create businesses. Businesses hire people and where those churches can create business opportunities and put people to work, I think they will have done more to bring about the Kingdom of God on Earth than all the praying over the conditions that exist in the African American community.

Robinson: When PNC Park was being built and Heinz Field, it was clear to me that the Steelers and Pirates had a vision, and they had a vision that said that they needed to control the sources of revenue and they needed to direct those sources of revenue into building their organization, building their dream. And then if something good happened for the city, fine. But first and foremost was building a business, building an opportunity to make money to stimulate the economy. In fact, we were told if we put money into the stadiums, it would stimulate the economy. They would create immense opportunity. Fine. For who? Under what circumstances? For how long? And for those who believe that the stadiums did that, then the preachers ought to take a page out of their book. Because if they are truly going to change the communities in which they are and the lives of their constituents who live in those communities, then I think the only thing for them to do is build businesses, not just housing, but they actually have to build businesses.

Robinson: Is that difficult? Yeah, but 90% of all the businesses in America are small businesses. And they're employing over 90% of the people. 55% of all the invention and innovation in business comes from small businesses, not large businesses. And the vast majority of black folks who do not work for the government, including teachers. Where you think they work? In the black community. And black men and women who you see standing on the street, walking around, even those who are selling drugs, they're working. They're working. But they're working at that in part, in part because there aren't other jobs in the community. Some of them are working because that's what they like to do. They're evil people. That's what they want to do. But the vast majority of them. Poorly educated, poorly trained, but bread cost the same. Cost the same. And if they could find a decent job and a decent job was available. A large portion of them would give that up because that's hard work. That's uncertain work. There's no Social Security. You're out there in all kinds of weather and the police chasing you. Now, who the heck wants to do that for a living?

Robinson: Or getting shot at. Now. I don't believe it. I don't believe that that's. I don't believe those people are that stupid. They're smarter than that. They've got to be smarter than that. If they can figure out you can make more money selling drugs than you can working at McDonald's, then there's hope for them. They got part of it right. But what we have to do is create circumstances where they can make a good living, a decent living. That's one of the reasons I'm in favor of non-union contractors and non-union workers being on government jobs, particularly big government jobs. I love the unions. My mother and father were in unions. I was in union. But I'm willing to face off against the biggest unions in this Commonwealth around this issue. If no one else does, I will. And I'll say them, I've always been supporters of yours. I've always helped you. I'm asking for your help. And if you tell me you won't help me on this, fine. That puts in perspective what I need to do. But I am not going to stand around and watch a few of you get rich and have a good life and tell me that my people or my constituents can't get it because you can't find nobody. If you guys can cobble together some way to build these stadiums and you can cobble together these labor stabilization agreements and all this other kind of stuff, you darn sure well can come up with something innovative to help these people over here.

Snow: How integrated are the construction trades by now?

Robinson: Not much.

Snow: That's what I was thinking, too.

Robinson: By their own admission, the mayor recently had a big dog and pony show. A year or so ago, 400 some thousand dollars was provided to community groups and organizations. The unions were all supportive of it because they said they were going to find a way to get men and women, black and white, into the trade unions. Fine. What is the result of that? Nobody has any statistics. Why? Why? I think they don't have any statistics because they know the statistics will say that they failed. Okay, so you failed. So the Steelers failed to go to Super Bowl? I haven't heard nobody talking about dismantling the Steelers. Put them out of town. They failed, but they failed in public. They had a chance. This was supposed to help the public. Then show us the result. You know, and it's not just the unions, the major corporations in this town, the biggies. What are they doing? What are they doing? What are they doing to share the wealth and spread it around? They do a lot of talking. Sure. They make a lot of contributions to a lot of groups and organizations, some of which I'm a party of. And I'll be the last one to want to throw cold water on a potential contribution. But the reality is, aside from putting some money up to help some kids go to college and buy some tickets for some dinner, Bill Robinson has a higher expectation.

Robinson: Yeah, a much higher expectation because you got more and I know you owe more. And do you like probably what I'm saying? No, you don't like it, but that ain't what this is about. If it was about liking what's being said. I'd probably get less than I got now. Snow: Yeah. Robinson: But just about you liking what I'm saying. No. Nobody likes to have to give it up. And no one likes to be told you owe somebody. No one likes to be reminded that maybe you got it because you had an advantage. What are the major banks in this town doing? Citizens Bank. PNC Dollar Bank. What are they doing? National say what are they, What are they, What are they really doing? What are they doing to stimulate the economic growth? Particularly in black neighborhoods. Let's deal with that where there's an obvious need, where there's an obvious concern, what are they doing? When did they step up to the plate and say, as this county changed, this community changes, we're going to change the way we do business. We're going to make sure everybody's involved. As much as I like Jim Roddy. When I talk to him in private about this issue or in public. He says he believes the solution is jobs.

Snow: On the banks. In answer to your question, it seems like they only did that under the Community Reinvestment Act when they were forced to.

Robinson: Right, and that was investing in housing. Snow: Right. Robinson: What about business? Again, again, getting back to business, you're not going to grow the black community and I'm interested in growing the black community and making it strong. You're not going to do that unless it's a strong business base. I don't care who you are. You can't, it can't be done. It cannot be done by sending all the black kids to college and turning them into employees. It ain't going to happen. Because where's the independence? Where's the entrepreneurial spirit? If it's good enough for the melons, that's good enough for the Robinsons. As far as how you make money, how you make money and how you grow, that's not dependent upon what color you are.

Snow: How has the track record of the Pennsylvania Minority Business Development Council been.

Robinson: Minority Business Development Administration Authority rather? Snow: Yeah. Robinson: PMBDA? My experience has been that, that history is spotty, that most of the money was directed towards Philadelphia County, that this interstate we got little from it, maybe several reasons from it. Philadelphia County is much bigger than we are, Philadelphia cities, much bigger than we are, and certainly they are entitled to more. But I would say that a lot of the deals went sour, but some of that was to be expected. These were high risk deals. And that's, the reason, the Pennsylvania Minority Business Development Authority was put in place in the first place to deal with high risk deals. I can't say if everything was done internal to the process, to make these ventures successful. I can't say if everything was done right by the businesses to pay back the money they got. And I'm the first to say every black person who wants to go in business should not be given a loan or a grant. Any more so than every white person who goes into business should be given one. There needs to be probably more selectivity, more emphasis on results. Let's look at the bigger picture. What kind of businesses do we need to create in the technology field in Pennsylvania? Where are the minority companies, in the city of Pittsburgh? Where are the minority companies? Where are the minority technological companies that are participating? Not just one getting the government contracts, the one getting the contracts on the private side? Where are they? Now, I can ask all the questions in the world.

Robinson: There also has to be that infrastructure and I think the infrastructure is put in place with a reasonable conversation between government officials, people like myself and people in the business sector. I don't think that happens. I think you end up with some groups created and some circumstances created. People sit around and they talk a little bit, but they're not really talking about getting down into the nitty gritty of really changing the circumstances. There's a lot of moaning and groaning and a lot of say, Oh my God, this situation is terrible. Oh, look at the condition of black people. As much as I love Esther Bush at the Urban League and what they're trying to do there, George Miles is their chairman. You look at their state of black Pittsburgh, last 2 or 3 years, is moaning and groaning and complaining about the condition of black folks. When the Urban League's major effort, along with the NAACP, national NAACP, is economics. Name one economic effort that the local Urban League is involved in. Name one. See, and I say to folks, Come on, come on. I mean, this is 2002. Some of that shucking and jiving can't work now. How, How many times can you tell me that my people are poor and they're deprived and they're depressed and you're going to save them one job at a time? One computer class at a time. One daycare center at a time.

Robinson: That ain't going to work. You know it's not going to work. There's too many examples where it doesn't work. Where is the implementation of the national initiative? Where is the hard work? To get to corporations and get the economic might of this region turned in such a way that it helps the African-American community. The Urban League uses 85% of its money for government, for social service programs. God bless them. That ain't going to save black people. That ain't going to change anything. The situation will probably get worse before it gets better. Tell me that you created two African-American millionaires. Tell me you created one construction company, that could be involved in a project. I'm looking at the big things. That's the big stuff. Let's get the, let's get some, something big where we can say, here is something that's big enough. In scale, that can fully participate in this region and really make an economic difference. We as politicians, particularly African-American politicians, are in a position to do that. If we have enough gumption and enough backbone on April 20th of this year, for the first time in the history of this county and the 214 year history of this county, African-American elected officials are going to be honored. I'm going to honor them at my 14th annual Soul Food sampler. It's never been done before as a group, not individually.

Robinson: We're going to honor the ones that are alive, the ones that have gone home to glory, and the ones that are out of office. Everyone that shows up is going to get a medallion. It's going to say, African American elected official, Allegheny County, crest of the county. And then the words fidelity, commitment, dedication, I mean, fidelity, dedication, service. And then on the back, it's going to say 14th Annual Soul Food Sampler Honoree April 20th, 2002. Put it in a little box and hand it to him. Here, you have to sign the autographs. You don't have to make no speech. Not to get no pictures taken if we don't want to, but the archives need to have some pictures. But this is not about telling somebody what a great person you are. It's about what you represent as a group. In the 214 year history of this county, I bet there hasn't been 100 African-American elected officials and there are 3500 elected officials in this county now. And I bet in office today, including school board members, I bet there's not-there's not 50. Most of them are school board members or on borough councils, either doing the job for free or for $100 a month. There are two of us in the legislature. You have two, three at the county level. Reverend Sims and Brenda Frazier together, $18,000. Valerie McDonnell makes about 61. I make 63. Joe Preston makes 63. Councilman Dean makes 50.

Robinson: So even our economic wealth, we'd have to really cobble it together, to say, here we are going to put up $100,000 for a person of color to run because we think it's that important. Snow: Wow. Robinson: See, not the white people think it's important, not the Democratic Party think it's important, not the Republicans think it's important. We think it's important. Again, do for yourself. Booker T. believed in that. Malcolm X believed in that. Martin Luther King believed in that. Bernie Jones believed in that. And Bill Robinson believes in that. Do for yourself as much as you can do. Then you ask other people.

Snow: I was just thinking, if there were 3500 elected officials, 8% of the population is African-American, one would expect about 220 currently. We're nowhere near that. That is a shocking statistic you've just said.

Robinson: Nowhere. Nowhere near it. No. And the possibility of that happened, happening shrinks every day with the economic condition in many of the smaller communities. You don't have the voter base. You don't have the economic base. You don't have people rushing to get on the borough council in places like Rankin and Braddock and other communities because it's a hassle. It's a racial hassle. It's an economic hassle. It's thankless. Sometimes the problems are so much bigger than you are. You need help from everybody, you know? We probably do need fewer units of government in Allegheny County. We probably need fewer elected officials. Metropolitanism is a dirty word, but I think what you're going to see is eventually in a not too distant future, fewer municipalities, fewer governments.

Snow: The Disincorporation bill passed, didn't it?

Robinson: Uh, I'm not sure. It may have passed the House. I don't think it passed the Senate. It may have passed the House. Tom Stevenson was pushing that. I first got involved in that when Frank Lucchino came up with the idea a few years before that and he was talking to some people and working on it. And this issue came up What's going to happen to black folks? You know? And he hadn't really thought that through. I don't think there was an issue on the agenda. But he met with some folks and they talked and, but I think Tom Stevenson's back on it. I think it's something Jim Roddey would like to see happen. It works to the advantage of Republicans. It also makes some business sense, makes some economic sense. And I think history is on the side of consolidation. There's always some consolidation. Now, I think eventually you're going to see some of these communities--politically go out of existence. I've said we need to keep the Wilmerdings of the world. We need to find a way to keep Wilmerding. But we need to find a way to allow Wilmerding to retire. But it's still there.

Robinson: There's still a Wilmerding, but it's retired. City of Pittsburgh, we have 80 some neighborhoods, but they're all in the city of Pittsburgh. But people in the city identify themselves by neighborhood. I'm from Bloomfield. I'm from the Hill District. I'm from Beltzhoover. World doesn't come to an end because they're in those community. But when their house catches on fire, they call the Pittsburgh Fire Department. When someone tries to rob them, they call the Pittsburgh police. When they get sick, they call the Pittsburgh paramedics. They root for the Pittsburgh Steelers. They root for the Pittsburgh Pirates. I think we got to find a way to do it. And, I think it'll happen sooner or later. It will work to the disadvantage of African-Americans because there'll probably be fewer African-American elected officials than there are now, because you're going to have--we got 44 school districts. We probably have too many school districts. Where a lot of the African-American elected officials are. So you start reducing that down, you start reducing the borough council down, you're not going to have much left. You know, there's three black mayors in Allegheny County now, in Rankin, Braddock and Wilkinsburg. Yeah.

Snow: Two of those should probably be disincorporated.

Robinson: Rankin and Braddock probably pushed together, and maybe even Wilkinsburg pushed into the city of Pittsburgh or pushed out and cobbled with Churchill, which is probably scaring the hell out of people in Churchill. Rankin can't, in the long, can't sustain itself. It's too poor. Too poor, too black, too surrounded. They've got to do something else.

Robinson: What it is? I don't know. They just got a black mayor. I mean, Rankin is the size of this table. [laughter]

Snow: I was wondering with one other thing that you were doing. Your influence on housing and government housing? Robinsion: housing? Snow: Well, housing, yes. How has Hope VI and the redevelopment of these public housing spots been affecting the residents in the Hill District and Stanton Heights and.

Robinson: Well, it's reconfiguring the demographics. We in Pittsburgh had, and maybe still have, the highest per capita public housing in the United States of America.

Snow: Did we really?

Robinson: More public housing residents per square feet, square foot, than any city in the United States of America. It's hard to believe because there's some-some pretty big projects around. 25 to 26% of my population was eroded over the last ten years. When I say eroded, that's perhaps the wrong word. People were displaced. They left. They died. My heart, of my legislative district, district I represent now is being rebuilt. Parts of Aliquippa Terrace, parts of Elmore Square places, parts of Borough Street, Breckinridge Street. Places that I knew as a kid when I was growing up, when I used to go up to 213 Borough Street and stay with my uncle Will my Aunt Chink. 213 Borough Street is still there, but Borough Street itself is changing. There aren't very many people on Borough Street now. I went up there recently and took a picture up near Addison Terrace. It's quiet. It's vacant. Is a new road being put in? And there's this long row of White Houses. They're empty. Who's going to live in those houses? Who are these new people? Because certainly there will be people. But, right now it's quiet. The community has changed. The high rises on Breckinridge Street are gone and they're absolutely gone. Those two big buildings are gone. What those people go. It's flat land now with trees. And then right across the street where there was another high rise on on Robinson Street, like Robinson extension, it's gone. There's nobody back up there.

Robinson: There's nobody back up there. When I used to go see my girlfriend, live back up in there. Pat Chavis, her house is gone. Absolutely gone. What's going to be there? Who are the new people who are going to live there? So it's, it has changed. And because that's changed, it's going to change the politics of the community. It may even change the politicians. I don't know who these new people are. Maybe they're people like yourself. Maybe you want another state rep. Your issues might be different. There are a lot of public housing residents there. Will the issues for the new people be the same when they're living in houses that are detached from one another? Some will be the same because some of the people will be the same. But it's going to be a new community. It's going to be new politics. What happened to the committee people that were there? They're gone. Some moved, some died. Some, I don't know where they are. So when I go out now looking for help in this upcoming election, 26% of the people are gone. My district is now spread out more into 27th Ward over on, out towards California Avenue, all down in there. Brighton Heights all up there. I'm more in Hazelwood over near Hazelwood Avenue. I'm over there. I have more of Oakland than I had before. So the center of the district is sort of shifted where the population is.

Snow: Excuse me one moment.