Robinson, Rev. James J., April 3, 2002, tape 1, side 2

James Robinson: There were some other activities that took place behind the scenes that made the union workers say that there was gonna be more than marching. I don't think Harvey and these guys ever understood that. I don't think that-- I've never said that. And so there was another coalition of a few of us who met and said that there had to be some other things done to make the unions-- And I'll say this, for instance, there was a group of young men who went downtown and blew out every window in Kaufmann's, Gimbel's-- every major store, just blew out the windows and said it and called in to the police and told them this is why it was done and it would continue to be done. I know that happened. That happened. There were people at the march who didn't march but stopped traffic. Bought automobiles, blocked up tunnels. I mean, this had nothing to do with the Black Construction Coalition. Michael Snow: Right. Right. Robinson: This was another little group. I never said this, but somehow Mugsy said that-- that with me, they felt that my line stretched a little further than some of the people who were involved in the march.

Michael Snow: Meaning that they felt your-- your access to the community or your involvement in other things--

Robinson: [simultaneous talking] My influence went a little further than just around the Black Construction Coalition. And that I could be responsible for a whole nother thing. I would walk out of my house. There was a gray car that followed me everywhere I went, every day. The guy waved. He followed me. I'd go to a restaurant, he'd wave and me and John Long and Father O'Malley. And they were absolutely right. Now, these are guys who never marched. They weren't allowed in the circle of the Black Construction Coalition. You see, the Black Construction Coalition could only go so far. But these were people who had another way of bringing union people to the table. That's never been said. Snow: Okay.

Snow: So the man in the-- in the gray car who waved-- was this police surveillance or this was someone from this other--

Robinson: Unmarked car. Unmarked. Snow: Oh. Robinson: Then on top of that, the suburban-- white suburban women played a tape and I heard it. And they were fairly close. They played a tape and the General Presbyter and John Galbraith from Westminster Presbyterian Church let me hear it. They said that I had a straight line to China-- Mao Tse Tung. They came down in Manchester and demonstrated because the presbytery was funding the recreation center, which was then going on, and stood out in front. These women, these white women, these white suburban women, this was all going on while all this other stuff was happening. They felt that I was a communist and felt that the presbytery should have a--a trial to defrock me. And went back in the books to have what they called a, uh, what do you call it-- was one of those trials. A-- I had one of those. I had to stop and think about it, that I should be tried. But the General Presbyter. Dr. Bill Rushaw [ph] A friend-- he's not--We don't have a bishop. But that guy saw what was going on, and he really protected me in every way, shape or form and stood up for me because he saw me at the leadership role. He saw that I was able to keep people in because Nate, there's no way in the world-- Bird and I brought a respectability to the marches. There was a respectability there. I have nothing against Nate, but Nate was a-- you know, he talked a lot, but the respectability came with the NAACP and a minister.

Snow: I was laughing earlier over the idea of these women--

Robinson: [simultaneous talking] I'm trying-- I'm trying to get-- I'm trying to put-- Snow: Right. Robinson: I spent a long time. I'm giving you a lot of information.

Snow: I was laughing earlier about the idea of these women holding almost a heresy trial, but--

Robinson: That's what I'm saying. They wanted to have a heresy trial me.

Snow: But it's still-- it can take up so much time defending it. And the legal--

Robinson: Well, they were mad. They were angry. They were-- they were angry that the money that was being used, that I was making kids make firebombs. Somehow they got the thing of the windows being broken downtown and all of that, it got-- it got-- somehow it got connected to the North Side and me and these children. And it was always that I was teaching children tactics on how to make firebombs because those-- those windows were broken out with firebombs. Snow: Oh, were they? Robinson: Oh, yeah. It was all firebombs. And two of the kids got burned very badly and we took them to the doctors. One kid to this day, we laugh. We kind of laughed about it. He didn't know how to do what he was doing, that--that was not-- But those were the things that were going on.

Snow: Did you find that that-- that the city and the union especially responded more quickly after that incident?

Robinson: I think that the head of the unions wanted to resolve the whole-- I think the head, the top people at the unions and the city certainly wanted to resolve it. Barr was good. Mayor Barr was extremely good. I have, uh, quotes him [??] and so was the-- Craig. Craig. I forget his--

Snow: David Craig.

Robinson: David Craig was extremely good. Very brave man. He's a Presbyterian, by the way. Very-- understood what was going on, understood what was going on. That could have really been a bad situation had it not been headed off because there were some other people who really didn't want to do some other things.

Snow: Right. Well, and I understand from articles in the alternative papers that when Barr left office and Craig left office-- I think if I've got my timeline correct, that the march across the bridge was-- that the police violence was under Superintendent Slusser.

Robinson: That's right. Slusser was-- Slusser was bad news. He was a racist from his heart. He was-- he was bad news. The guardians at that time with-- were good. Luckily, they were around the-- You know, it could have been-- It could have been-- it could have been much uglier. But Barr was good. Barr-- But North Side had a lot going on. There's a lot going on. But as I'm saying-- but as I'm saying, there were other people who were doing other things. Snow: Right. Robinson: While all this was going on. And I'm telling you, it was not-- It was not Blacks who were the most radical. It was a-- it was a small-- well, it-- well, it was a mixture. 1 or 2 of us. It was a-- there was a small group of whites. Women. Who did some things.

Snow: How did you view their actions? I'm thinking back from my own experiences when the Klan came in 1997, I think it was. There was a group that was going to come in of white radicals who go around the country provoking violence between the Klan and civil rights demonstrators. Robinson: Mm. Right. Mm-hm. Snow: And I was just wondering if you felt like you were being pushed too far by this, these outside agitators?

Robinson: 97 I wasn't too--

Snow: Right. But I'm talking-- I'm just saying-- Was it analogous back that these white radicals were pushing too far and interfering too much? Did you feel that-- Robinson: As far as Klan? Snow: No. As far as the Black Construction Coalition back in your day?

Robinson: Oh, well, I'm trying to follow your--

Snow: Sorry, I'm confusing the train of thought. I'm confusing myself. I'm trying.

Robinson: I'm trying-- [laughs] --to figure out where you're headed there.

Snow: I was just saying, you told me that back in the Black Construction Coalition-- Robinson: Right. Snow: --while it was organizing-- Robinson: Right. Snow: --there were these white female radicals.

Robinson: There were some. Yes. Yes.

Snow: Some. That were taking matters even further.

Robinson: Right. Snow: Poten-- Robinson: They were giv-- There's money.

Snow: And--

Robinson: There was a-- personal things that were being done that they did. And I'm just naming one of them.

Snow: And I was just wondering if--

Robinson: This was never brought to the--to the attention of anybody. Snow: Okay. Robinson: And they in turn linked up with another little small group of Blacks who were not going to march, felt their marching wasn't going to do it. There were some other things that were going on. I don't think I'm a fox. And these people knew that. The NAACP-- is this going on record?

Snow: If you need to put part of it off record, we can.

Robinson: The NAACP had a role. But during those days, many of us in the church wondered if the church could help bring about justice, you know. And I had a hard time at that time figuring out whether or not I could be both Black and Presbyterian. And that's before I really got into some other areas. And I had a hard time figuring that out. But if it hadn't been for the likes of-- Of Bill Rushaw [ph] and some strong white leaders in the church, in the Presbyterian Church. Presbyterian Church is different now than it was then. It's much different, much-- too-- very conservative now. But in those days, many of us were reading stuff, you know, and I was listening to Malcolm X and I was listening to--reading Bonhoeffer, Niemöller over in Germany. I was reading all that stuff. My thinking theologically was changing very radically, you know, from a Billy Graham type of ministry to a-- to a different thing. And this is even before I even got into Selma. And I'm thinking pretty much, where is it? But-- but anyway, I was-- I was thinking. I was changing radically because I was very conservative. I'm still conservative theologically-- Snow: Right. Robinson: --But my thinking then was changing. And, you know, I was beginning to wonder, you know, even then whether all this marching-- you know, it was going to pay off and these people weren't going to give up nothing.

Robinson: They had the power and it was all about power. You know, and when you're powerless, you can't-- You can't achieve nothing. And you're not going to bring anybody to the table to make them negotiate with you by marching. After a while they'll say, Well, you can march until your head falls off. I'm not going to give you nothing. I'm not going to give you anything. And--and I could see that. You know, and-- and the young Black kids in Manchester said, you know, I ain't marching no damn place. And they were ready to do other things. And then there were other people who were willing to give a few nickels and a few dollars to be able to help them do some other things other than what was going on. And I don't think anybody paid any attention to this. I never saw anything in the paper about what happened downtown. I never saw anything that was connected to that about the mall down there, which is no longer there on the other side of the China Wall, on the thing, all being burned down, I don't think that was identified with the marchers, but it was. Snow: Hm. Wow. Robinson: It was--it was--there was a--you know, it was.

Snow: And had you decided not to pursue going through the Human Relations Commission and trying lawsuits and going through the Equal Opportunities Commission federally?

Robinson: I don't think--I don't think anybody want to do that. Snow: No. Robinson: I think that is too late. I didn't-- I, I think it had to be settled at a much higher level. Snow: I see. Robinson: And it was settled at a much higher level. The city had to be drawn in and the feds had to be drawn in. And that's how it was settled. The federal-- the feds ended up really in Washington, D.C., and I got involved. They got-- they really got involved because it was really getting out of hand. It could have escalated into something ugly. Uh, am I getting-- Am I bringing it? Snow: Yes. Robinson: Okay. It's just --

Snow: [simultaneous talking] It's specific enough to get information that's not in the papers. Robinson: --been a while. Yeah. Snow: I was just wondering if you could comment on how successful this-- the Black Construction Coalition was in getting jobs for the construction?

Robinson: Yeah, that's a hard one to determine. It was--

Snow: I know.

Robinson: Piecemeal. It wasn't much.

Robinson: Which, can you say was better than nothing. But the unions are still pretty much the same. I can't see much-- I can't see-- I haven't followed the unions, but there know I think there was something like 1200 jobs or something. I can't remember the agreement, but it wasn't anything magnificent.

Snow: Is your sense that-- Let me back up. Salodin and the African American Cultural Workers Union-- I think I might be getting that acronym wrong-- were angry over the small number of-- Robinson: Mm-hm. Yeah. Snow: [simultaneous talking] African Americans--

Robinson: They had a right to.

Snow: --employed on the building of Heinz Field and PNC Park.

Snow: Is it your sense that the numbers employed went up for a time after the the marching season in the early 70s and then--

Robinson: There wasn't much. Snow: --fell off?

Robinson: There wasn't any pressure brought on it. There wasn't-- No, it was unfair. It wasn't right. They're absolutely right.

Snow: Had there been a time, though, in the 70s when it was better in terms of employment and then it's just--

Robinson: I think the-- I think the issue was brought out. I think the whole issue was brought out much stronger. It was-- And if you want to measure it, that 70s had a much better-- impact on making the city aware. It just wasn't followed-- Just wasn't followed through. We just sort of left it. We didn't-- we didn't continue to follow through on it. We left it and went into other areas of work. That's what happens, you know, you bring it to its peak and then you leave it. You think that the issue is solved and it's not solved. It never has been solved. But Saleh-- what's difficult for Saleh being where he is now, though. See, it's different than when you're a community leader and when you're respectable and you're City Council. It's-- it's-- it's a whole different, you know. People only yield to power. Power against power. People are not going to give up anything. It's all about money.

Robinson: Unless you, uh. You have a hand to be able to bring it out. Few people gain from it, but the masses don't. The masses of Blacks still are underemployed. Under-addressed. That's what we're trying to do here. It's-- got a whole group of people who--Who--who--Who are out of work, unemployed, going to jail. It's a-- you know, it's just. You know, it's just-- Don't know if I'm answering the question here. But it's-- So as far as what happened back in the 70s, a few things happened that were never followed up. But as far as this down here-- you see, it's changed too. The whole area has changed with drugs and money. Young kids, they don't have to work. You know, now it's a whole different thing. A lot of kids don't want to work. They don't have to work. That's one piece of the pie. But then there's a lot of people who do want to work who-- who are not going to be put on, you know, in the unions. But there's no pressure. Not like there was in the 70s. Not the kind of every day up in your face kind of part. I don't even know if that would work anymore. I don't know. I just-- I don't know. I don't-- I don't know. Because all I-- all my family always said we were going to do-- we're going to take a small piece of the turf, and start with kids at a very early age. Education is the answer, and that's it.

Snow: When did you get into that?

Robinson: Uh.

Robinson: We said that, I guess. Hmm. I don't know. I guess after. After a while? I don't know. After all the dust cleared, the 70s. The 70s. Late 70s. The late 70s.

Snow: So that's about when you founded Manchester Youth Development Corporation?

Robinson: Yeah. Yeah, around 70s. We just said, this is what we're gonna do. Marching and all that is outdated. It's not gonna work. We're gonna pick these kids and we're gonna try to bring 'em up. Get 'em in school. Education is the answer. That's when we said it. That's when we started. That's-- Started it here.

Snow: What made you say that marching was outdated?

Robinson: Well, it was. I felt it was.

Unidentified Speaker: Mr. Carr, would you please call extension 0?

Robinson: After the 70s, it seemed as though that a lot of the young white liberals went back into the institution, put on a three button suit, went back to the institution, felt that the problem was solved. Didn't want to spend anymore time on the racial thing. See, race is always a problem. It's a matter of color. The whole thing is a matter of color. And, uh, and a lot of the older guys got tired, too. They just said, well, you know. It just a lot-- You know, the sticktoitiveness of the staying power after a while leaves. You get older and you, you know, and you get tired. Struggling. So the fire in your eyes, you know, after a while, you can always tell a guy who's really on target. You can look in his eyes and see if the fire is there, you know. And a lot of it, you know, the fire goes out, the light goes out. You don't have that same desire. Snow: Right? Robinson: It just does. You just get tired. And a lot of people just got tired. It was in their heart that they knew that the problems are still there, but you just don't have the wherewithal. And the torch was not carried from one generation to another.

Robinson: The young kids had a different agenda. They did not see that, you know, and I don't know if it's our fault by not teaching them that, you know, that racism was still alive, but it didn't happen. These kids. They came off. They're different. They're a different group of people. You know, they don't-- they didn't know the history of King and and Malcolm X and Farmer and and all these people. They didn't know that. And I don't know if the church is at fault. I don't know if you can blame anybody. It's just that the light just-- flickered. Didn't [??] go burn out. There's a lot of people who still had the desire, but it's just-- the masses just-- it was not there to be able to continue the struggle as it intensified. King died and, you know, was assassinated. And, you know, it just--it just was not there. The next generation just didn't-- seem to have that-- have-- to have that really desire. And I guess some of us can be put into the category of not teaching and reminding kids, you know, of the injustice and all that. You know, we maybe, maybe we can take some of the blame of not-- reviewing history with them.

Snow: Did you do that here last month for Black History Month?

Snow: Good.

Robinson: It's not a Black History Month special time. I think it's-- It's fairly often, it happens. It goes on pretty well here. Snow: Okay. Robinson: Kids are reminded.

Snow: There are a lot of resources now that I think are fantastic for that level of education.

Robinson: Oh. But these are a different group of kids. Snow: Right. Robinson: I see kids on a corner and it's sad. Drugs and money has done a terrible thing to our youngsters. It's just-- it's pitiful out there on the streets what you see these kids going through. You know, the whole thing with the gangs and drugs. And it's a different world. It's a different type of youngster.

Robinson: You know, crack babies and grandmother on drugs and mother on drugs. And it's-- it's-- these children are different. They're a different group of kids altogether than the kids from the 70s and the 60s. It's hard being a youngster now. It's tough even in the Black world. Even in the white world, white kids.

Robinson: Have a tough time. It's tough. I feel sorry for kids now. It's just rough-- the crap on TV, and you can settle an argument now by killing somebody. You don't fight somebody, you know, you just wipe them out. Guns. You don't fight nobody no more. You shoot them. Rage. [laughs] I mean, the rage that you see in kids' eyes. Ooh, the anger. It's there. So, you know, you're dealing with it now. You know, I've lived to see that. I've gone through all that. You know, and the thing about it is, I was looking at Ray Brown down there, the musician down at the Manchester Craftsmen's Guild. He's 75 years old. He still has the same desire to play and he can play, but he's surrounded himself with the two sidemen. The one boy looked like he was about 12 years old and the other one looks like he's about 15, but he still has-- he can still play. And he's not talking about what happened back when he was with Oscar Peterson and way back then when he was younger. He's bringing his skills to these kids. He's reminding them of the history of jazz. And that's what my wife and I are trying to do. We're reminding these kids and we're telling them, you have a chance in this world, even though it is all this and don't get hung up on racism.

Robinson: Don't get-- You can talk about that, you know, and I know all that. But there's a bigger picture here. You can be whatever you want to be in this country. And that's the message. And some of these kids come through some very, very tough situations. Now we've seen 2 or 3 generations. We've had-- we have three generations of kids that we've seen come through this place. We know the grandmothers and the mothers and now the children that are here. So you tell them, you know, and show them by actions. You can be-- you can be great. You can be whatever you want to be. You know, the guy, Dixon, what's his name, is playing on Maryland's team. You know, both his mother and his father died of drugs. Snow: Wow. Robinson: And how good he is. I've seen kids come through here. One goes to jail and the other one's a doctor, you know? So. But, but, but, but--but this is what we said we were going to do. We were going to pick a small piece of the turf, use education as a key, and that's it. That's what we've done. Now, all the other stuff is history and we're still standing.

Snow: And you got all the grants to expand this-- this building into a school?

Robinson: That's right.

Robinson: Mostly, mostly foundations. Put this place together.

Snow: Had a lot of your civil rights connections and networking helped you with the foundations?

Robinson: It's made them know me. Snow: Right. Robinson: So that when my name comes up and we go somewhere, they know what-- we have a track record. They followed us and then--