Robinson, Rev. James J., April 3, 2002, tape 1, side 1

Michael Snow: This is tape one of State and Local Government Archives interview, part two with Reverend James J. Robinson. It is April 3rd, 2002. I'm sitting in Reverend Robinson's offices in the Manchester Youth Development Center. When we finished up last time you begin to tell me about working with the Black Construction Coalition and how it formed.

James Robinson: Yeah. The-- Nate Smith was denied Operation Dig Two. He had Operation Dig, an organization called Operation Dig. And we were-- The Bidwell Culture and Training center was-- had an arrangement with the union--the--the union to do some work in an old laundry building that we had-- It was just starting. The Bidwell Culture and Training Center was starting. And we found out that there was going to be a meeting down at the City Hall. All the details, I can't remember. So I didn't know Nate that well, I wasn't-- I knew-- I was familiar with Operation Dig. And--But at the same time, the stadium in USX was being constructed. There was a lot of jobs. And we were still, I think, involved with the Citizen Clergy Coordinating Committee. I think. Trying to get my dates straight. And so Mike Desmond, who was the, uh, executive director of the Bidwell Culture and Training Center at that time--We went down to the meeting. And somehow the union, and, you know, the contractors, the unions, the heavy contracting union that was doing our building--And Nate--There was a conflict. And we went down to the--well, of course, this is a long time ago. We went down to the meeting and ended up saying that if they did not deal with Nate, we were not going to allow them to continue to work in the-- in the-- in the building. And that's what started it.

Robinson: And--so it spread out into the bigger--all the contractors, you know, the steam fitters, and-- I don't know what you call the overall union, the steelworkers, the boilermakers, all of them somehow were involved in the whole union mix. It spilled over into the stadium, not hiring young Black men. And we were in the--we were in that business. We were in the training business. And so in supporting Nate and making the statement at the City Hall, and there was a lot of people down there-- And them not wanting to start the dig-- Operation Dig Two-- Nate had heavy equipment. He was into training young Black kids in heavy equipment. You know, the bulldozers and all that kind of stuff. So we made a statement that if you don't support him, we're not going to have anything to do with you. We made that statement down there. Oh, boy. And the union was doing all that work in an old laundry building, fixing it up so that we could do training ourselves because we were in the training business. So we pulled away from-- from the Citizen Clergy. I'm pretty sure this is the way it worked. And we were already organized. And the first thing we did was when they were delivering steel down to the stadium, there was a group called the Black Rangers, who were associated with Bidwell Culture and Training Center.

Robinson: And some of the students and myself and some of the teachers went down and stopped the steel trucks. Stood in front of them and got arrested. That started it. Start a whole-- That started a whole bunch of stuff. And so then we began to organize. Uh, we began to organize around the--the--the hiring practices of the union putting up Three Rivers Stadium. We began to organize around the USX building-- US Steel, then, being organized. And we brought in the NAACP. We brought in a lot of little different groups and we began to meet. But basically it started on the North Side. Snow: Did it. Robinson: Yeah, we were--We were-- We were together. And a lot of the stuff came from the students of the Bidwell Culture and Training Center going down and demonstrating. We--We let them out. I was the president of the board at that time. And they began every day to demonstrate against the--the--the union not hiring Blacks. And it escalated and it got bigger and bigger. Then Clyde Jackson on the Hill got involved in it. Uh. Get United Black Front. Uh. There was a lot of different groups that got involved. And we just start demonstrating. Daily. Uh, the meeting--The meeting place was with all the groups-- was at the United Black Front where Clyde Jackson, the executive director was. Byrd Brown got involved. Uh, NAACP. Students from Pitt.

Robinson: Uh, yeah.

Robinson: I think every organization in the city got involved and they knew the times that we were going there and the Manchester Bridge at that time was a lot of starting places where we would go downtown and-- and walk downtown. The bridge-- it's no longer there. The Point Bridge and Manchester Bridge were there at that time. And a lot of the starting places wasn't at the Freedom Court at that time, but a lot of the starting points was from the Manchester Bridge, but we were doing a lot of demonstrating at that time. And it was pretty well organized, too, and it just got bigger and bigger. Then the city got involved. Then the state got involved. Then it--it just got--it got rough. And there was a lot of meetings at the city level of trying to work out an agreement for hiring young Black men-- Got into that, and-- Then it even went--it got--it got to the point where--

Robinson: Uh.

Robinson: Where I can remember at one time the workers-- It got so rough that--that they--they shut down, the city shut down. They called it Black Monday and it was shut down. The whole city was shut down because for the fear of violence, because the--the workers at the--at the USX building began to get irritated. Then the thing that sparked off everything is when we were trying to march across the bridge at one demonstration, the-- And I have the pictures here. The police were lined up with their gear, with their--with their gear and the mace and the clubs and all like that. Somebody bumped one of those guys. And they began beating people, pushing them over the side of the bridge. It got into a very, very ugly scene and they really whipped a lot of people. And then people just scattered and ran. And a lot of women were there. There were children there. There was a lot of people there. And some people got hurt. A lot of people got hurt. Then after that-- And when people saw it on television, there was a rally. I don't know what--what time from that date.

Robinson: There was a rally of close to 10,000 people who met at Freedom Corner and marched down in sympathy for what happened at the Manchester Bridge. Snow: Wow. Robinson: And I have those pictures. The pictures were there. I don't have them around, but the pictures are there. Snow: Right. Robinson: And it was a large rally and they walked around the USX building in sympathy for the people who got beat. And then--I can't think of the man's name. We flew to Washington, DC. Who--The man, I can't--These names. Who was ever in charge of--Uh, at the Washington level. Washington, in the--In Washington, D.C.. Tried to bring peace and the unions. And by then we had the name Black Construction Coalition-- met in Washington, D.C. to try to work out an arrangement of hiring--hiring at the stadium and at USX. And that's what came about. Now I'm leaving out a lot. But those-- that's a--that's an overview of-- Snow: Right. Robinson: --what we're on. And there was a piece that was training in the different unions that they had that was worked out after--after those-- the incidents that happened.

Snow: How did Bidwell get this involvement with the union? Robinson: Well-- Snow: Had they been ready to accept it?

Robinson: Well, Bidwell Culture and Training Center was unique and-- We are-- Mike Desmond came from the OIC in Philadelphia. We hired him originally as a-- upstairs in the gymnasium as a-- Strangely enough, as a recreation director.

Snow: Oh, did you.

Robinson: Then, Mike, with his skills, began to develop a pseudo-OIC program of hiring young Blacks and getting them trained. And those days, people like Dravo brought in a whole system in this same wash-- the same warehouse where the union was, an old washeteria and an old laundromat building that they were fixing up. We started there and Dravo brought in a whole welding operation with stalls and all like that. Then all the different people-- see, because in those days, she was-- There was a lot-- There was-- We felt that it was a way to keep young people from-- from going to the streets rioting. I think that was-- somehow the King riots came in there, some kind of way. I'm--I'm jumping here.

Snow: Okay.

Robinson: But you have to forgive me, but Alcoa, Westinghouse, all of these people came in and were willing to be able to-- They came in with money and with expertise and all of this to train, to train-- Now, we were doing this before all this other occurred. Snow: Right. Robinson: This was happening before all the other stuff occurred. I'm getting my--

Snow: And that's what makes it fascinating, too.

Robinson: This was all happening. So when we went down, we gave up a lot. When we went down there and--and said such and such. So this was all going on before Martin Luther King riots and all like that. This was all going on. We were doing this, Mike and I were doing all this and we had a board and we were doing all these things and--and the thing grew, just grew. Our unemployment was bad and--and it got bigger and got bigger. Then we had stations out in Duquesne and Clairton and we had a motor pool and we brought people in and we had different stations out in these different places and brought them in to this so called-- uh, laundromat that the unions were fixing up. There was one place on Sheffield Street that we called Leroy Irvis Hall.

Snow: Oh, did you?

Robinson: Yeah, that was-- we dedicated that. That was over on Sheffield Street. And there was training going on there and carpentry, and, uh, there was a school for GED. Pitt got involved in it. They brought professors and teachers over there that were teaching different skills on how to go into college. There was a lot going on. And this was all happening before the Black Control-- Construction Coalition was formed. So we were doing all these things. And of course, the Bidwell still carries the name down the street, but it was called then the Black Construction Coalition. And a lot of the stuff was happening over in the gymnasium. It started-- that's where Mike-- that's where Bidwell Culture and Training Center started. Snow: Wow. Robinson: Over in the gymnasium. The plumbing-- The old plumbing warehouse.

Snow: That's what I thought.

Robinson: Yeah, it was started there. Now, I hope that this-- that-- kind of ties in trying to-- It's been a long time. Trying to get the dates and the periods straight here. But that's-- so when-- so when the-- so when we went down to the-- to the city hall for--for Nate, all of this other stuff was going on. The Bidwell Culture and Training Center was set up. The unions were fixing up the building. We were-- they were just doing it because they saw what we were trying to do. And then when we went downtown and sided with Nate and said that we can no longer allow you to come in and to do what you're doing for us because you're treating our brothers wrong, then it exploded.

Snow: Had your--your graduates been finding work on these projects before that?

Robinson: It-- We hadn't been in business very long-- Snow: Okay. Robinson: --but some of the guys were being placed. Some of the guys were finding work. Not a whole lot. But some of the guys were being placed. Not in the electric-- not in the big time unions, not in the unions. Snow: Mm-hm. Robinson: Because we were new and-- But the unions were willing to deal with us. They were-- they were-- they were able-- they wanted to deal with us. But somehow we got caught up in an inner fight there with them dealing with Operation Dig Two. And then we couldn't--we couldn't--Bidwell Culture and Training Center could not allow the union to be paternal-- Using us as a prime example in the Black community by ostracizing Nate. And it would seem like other people who wanted to do things in their community. We could not be that unique. We just couldn't. We had to take a position and the position that we took made the unions back away from us. Then we ended up fighting them. We ended up really forming eventually the Black Construction Coalition and-- But at the same time, we were the--the--the Citizen Clergy was winding down. It was winding down. It wound down. And--but--but the North Side has always been organized. Manchester has always been organized. And we just--We just--Went across the city and included other people. But most of the stuff started here on the North Side.

Snow: That's fantastic.

Robinson: Yeah.

Snow: Were you receiving help from Community Action Pittsburgh and the other War on Poverty agencies that the city had?

Robinson: I don't think so. I can't remember. I can-- I can imagine that there was a lot of people who-- I can't remember, but I think that most every organization at that time sided-- got involved. There was a lot of organizations, a lot of people, and who I saw-- I don't know the names, and we didn't have a list of names. But boy, I tell you, we got-- there was a lot of people who joined in and wants to.

Snow: Oh, what [??] to Black Construction Coalition? Yeah.

Robinson: [simultaneous talking] Yeah, joined the Black Construction Coalition. It wasn't a an organization that was-- you join. It was just an organization that had a name and people just came. I mean, every day people just came every day and just walked around that UX building. I mean, every day-- a long time, too. They just-- people just came out.

Snow: You said that the white construction workers were getting agitated. Were they also throwing things--

Robinson: [simultaneous talking] Pennies-- drop pennies from way up at the top of the building down. Then after we had that march, they marched. And I said, they marched and they were in full force. That's when they called a moratorium and had what they called Black Monday. They shut down every-- the city shut down every-- and this is on record. Every building, every construction site was shut down in the city. Until the moratorium was solved. That was the-- there was that one day. Now, I imagine after the next day that people went back to work, but they shut it down. And the unions--after we had that march, the unions had their march and they told us in no uncertain terms that we're not going to take any crap. And when we met and all the meetings were at-- I can remember, at City Hall and we had a moderator, we had people there. It was well-- It-- they were trying to-- they were trying to work this thing out because it got violent. And there was some-- there was some rough stuff that went on, but the union workers were not going to be told-- And they were-- they told us at those meetings, if you think that you're going to really shut us down and keep us out of our jobs, we'll show you. And I'm serious. They-- they told us. It could have got really into some ugly stuff. Oh, I can't think of that man's name who came from Washington who then was the representative of-- of this-- I forget his title. That can be looked back at, though. But he came. Then we flew in a plane to Washington, DC. There. And he negotiated with us. Members of the Black Construction Coalition flew in private plane. We went to Washington and members of the union went there, too, and we met there. They tried to solve it when we came back to Pittsburgh. Then we came to-- Eventually it came to a head and it was-- Everybody signed an agreement.

Snow: Do you remember before the federal government got involved, who from the city was involved in trying to negotiate?

Robinson: Can't remember who moderated those meetings. Snow: Okay. Robinson: I can't remember. It's been a long time. Snow: Right. Robinson: And there was a lot of meetings. Snow: I bet. Robinson: Oh, there was a lot of meetings. You have to go to paper on that one. I just can't remember. There was a lot of meetings. We sit across the table looking at each other. There's a lot of ugly words said back and forth. Them guys were mad. They weren't going to give up anything. They just didn't want to give up anything. The boilermakers, the electricians. And they were all there. And there was a-- there was a heading over the union, I forget what it was called, that brought all these unions together.

Snow: I don't know if it was the Allied Trades. That's what's on the tip of my tongue.

Robinson: [simultaneous talking] No, it was another name that they had. and it was under one umbrella. All these unions were under one umbrella. And they met. They met. They didn't want to meet, but they met. But there were some people on the unions who-- who saw. There was some very calm heads. And I can't think of the people-- I see them from time to time even now, who saw and wanted to resolve it. But your hardcore union guys did not want to give up nothing.

Snow: How did they state it? Did they state it as-- that you were trying to hone in on something that they had fought for-- Robinson: Well-- Snow: --or was it just racism?

Robinson: What we felt was a lot of the union guys, their brothers and sisters, for instance-- it was a tradition in the ethnic households. The jobs were handed down from one generation to another. If you came from Italy or you came from another place, that those jobs were-- were handed down. We saw that jobs were being handed down from generation to generation. And in many of those unions-- and to break that, to break the brick, the brick, the cement, the masons, the cement masons, bricklayers and all like that, it was a tough-- it was a tough thing to break into. Now, 1 or 2 guys might have sneaked through it, but for us to break through all that-- uh, it was a hard thing to do, and these guys were not gonna give it up. To get into the boilermakers, and these guys were making a big buck an hour. And-- and we felt that that stadium with federal money being built-- And so the, you know, the US Steel building being built, we wanted a piece of the action. And the only way we could do it was to demonstrate. To try to make people aware that young Black men were being shortchanged. And so the only way to do it was to hit the street. And that's-- that's what happened. And it was a daily march. I mean, not just one day. This went on for a long time.

Snow: Right. Right.

Robinson: It was day after day. I can remember-- I wasn't in church. I mean, I was out of church. And-- and they didn't see me too often. But they understood. And church people walked a lot-- There was a lot of churches involved, a lot of Black churches involved. I must say that. A lot of Black pastors were out there. There was a lot of white pastors out there. There was a lot of people. The people were really involved in this thing. There were suburban pastors who came. I mean, it was a thing-- Now, I'm not saying a whole lot, but they were very sympathetic about what was going on in those days.

Snow: And in that big march at US Steel and during Black Monday--

Robinson: Yes.

Snow: Alma Fox has said that the police arrested the leaders of the march. Were you amongst those?

Robinson: I got arrested, yeah.

Robinson: Me and Bird were arrested. I got arrested.

Snow: And I think if I remember from the newspapers correctly, the city then began trying to-- I think it thought it made a mistake by taking the leaders out of the march, because who's going to control this crowd? Is that correct?

Robinson: [simultaneous talking] Well--

Robinson: Harvey Adams could probably answer that, but I can remember going home one night. My phone was tapped. Mugsy Moore told me. Snow: Did he? Robinson: Yes, he did. Snow: Wow. Robinson: Mugsy was good. I can remember going home one night and a red car went-- Of course, I hate to say this. And I don't think that Alma and them knew the role that I played. I don't think the NAACP knew the role I played. I played a little different role in this thing. You know, 'cause-- We had another little organization that had another way of-- that we felt that justice ought to be-- Our picture was a little bit broader, and I was involved with a group from New York called IFCO. I was involved with another group and-- at that time, and they came. They were here very quietly. They were here, but-- Um, I don't know if I want to say this.

Snow: So you were taking a more militant line behind the scenes?

Robinson: Yeah-- Yeah, we did. We were-- had another little way of dealing with things. I-- I feel-- I felt that marching wasn't gonna get it and there had to be another approach to make the union people step up to the plate.

Snow: Excuse me one second while I turn the tape over. Robinson: Yes.