Brown, Homer S., October 25, 1972, tape 1, side 1

Speaker1: You check your sound level. See this?

Homer S. Brown: You ought to get a little and then. Yeah, See? Brown: What is this thing over here you had--

Speaker1: Uh. Now to when you want to stop it. [recording paused]

Brown: But we're all in business on that score. Is that all right? All set? We'll just sit down and start talking-- Kurtzman: Um, and end of smoke problems. Uh, a removal of unsightly buildings, the construction of the Golden Triangle. That has been sort of the background of our of our of our study to see how that that process occurred and what it means. And we've been very interested as we've gone along with having how could you make it work again. Brown: Yeah. And could you make it work is really one of the questions now is when will the the demand of neighborhood areas and communities in general and involvement whether it's at a university, whether it's in the city government the the you you familiar with. But you know that a handful of people made some major decisions and then you only went along. I just don't know whether today that would be a working vehicle.

Kurtzman: Yes. Brown: Is this on now? Speaker1: Yes.

Brown: Shut it off. I'd rather you shut it off. What I to say may-- [simultaneous talking]

Brown: not be apropos of what you. [recording paused]

Kurtzman: Now, we're talking about how that there had been the smoke control legislation in which it had disastrous results prior to this. Brown: Well, it was an isolated piece of legislation. What I mean, isolated-- it originally was not within the purview of those who espoused this so called Pittsburgh Package--

Brown: which I'll talk to later on, but those who--

Brown: --knew that smoke control was a vital and key matter in this whole question of Renaissance, whether for Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, and for Pittsburgh it was a must. But of course you had and I don't say this point of view of anybody was pressuring anybody beyond reasonable means of lobbying. The view that this movement was being engrafted within a community that burning coal. Yes, and coal was the vital material in this neighborhood at that time. After all, I said that I was on the legislative committee that made some inquiries as to the cost of the Anthracite coal, it would be necessary to supply this area with the coal that they

Brown: were getting from the south [??} which is in our neighborhood here.

Brown: I'm putting you ahead. The question of, uh, not only was soft coal a commodity that was, attached to this community, it required a lot of legislation and the question of the constitution of that legislation was taking a man's property away from him. To put the land back after they had cut the coal because so much of the coal is near the top of the surface. They didn't have to go down like they did in Luzerne County and up in there thousands of feet to get the coal. So you had that to deal with.

Brown: and the smoke control people who push this smoke control bill from time to time met with disasters. The bills that were passed were not the bills that they could live with. I think they knew that when they passed, but they had to pass something. So the smoke control deal, which--

Brown: --was not originally in the Pittsburgh Package, became a part of the Pittsburgh Package almost by necessity. [phone ringing] [phone conversation] Pardon me. I think our [unintelligible] was going. Hello? Well, Mr. Walker just left. I think he's gone for the day. You're welcome. Brown: Now we come down to this time and it became this urge to rebuild Pittsburgh. It was, it may be now, I don't know too much about it, but I know at that time it was decaying. I don't think that all the decay had been cut out or stopped, but--

Brown: Those of us in the community especially the first spots that made the city.

Brown: concious of this matter, and the [unintelligible]-- based on, at that time--

--there was a housing association that was starting

Brown: which helped a whole lot in just trying to soften the ground because all.

Brown: the ground down there had to be torn down and--

Brown: --all the buildings where they had to be torn down. Then the question came where is the money coming from? This I do not know how it got here, but I know [unintelligibible] branched out and. Loaning the money for at least the first two before they had visions of what would happen and needing the money for the others--

Brown: And then I imagine, I don't know, but Bell Telephone probably

Brown: financed that itself--

Brown: I don't know. Well--

Brown: the Urban Redevelopment Authority then became active. It was not a party with a legal background that it has now, because that was, well, one of the areas in which the fight occurred is how are we going to build,rebuild the city unless these corporations that are going to borrow money and that they're going to build this today unless they have the right to condemn the property. And one of the first excursions was into that area of giving to what is a quasi-public authority--

Brown: --where the authority which has the right that needed had to have the right

Brown: to condemn the property and then sell it back to somebody else, which was a rather

Brown: difficult situation to legalize to-- Because there's something really unknown to

Brown: This kind of law in the domain that the same entity or person that has condemned the property could sell the property back to somebody else. Yeah, it was. You condemn the property, You want to use it for your own public purpose, Not to get mortgages and feel the burden and rent out to tenants. Well, the one bill that out of this package of bills that they--

Brown: Decided on to make a test of this, and this is where I have some action on it because I was one of the sponsors of the bill.

Brown: And became a part of Pittsburgh Package was the parking authority. Speaker: You were chairman of the Allegheny County delegation. Chairman of the Democratic delegation. Bob Fleming was chairman. Probably stuck in the house. Brown: Well, we searched the law and we found out that there wasn't any crystal clear law that we could follow because the fact of the-- automobile or the people who would use the parking authority would be only people who had automobiles with somewhat of a restriction on the use of public property because we had thought in the law that when you condemned a piece of ground it's going to be used for a public purpose and that public purpose would not admit of restrictions on it. So that was the first hardcore situation they had, but they had to do something about the parking downtown. So we happened to agree--

I worked with some of the lawyers of the legislature at the time to

Brown: make a study of this matter. We wrote the preamble of the parking authority bill. The preamble said this was a matter of public policy that lack of parking space not only interfered, it could create an uncertain situation did create a hazard. And the parking would have to be on the street and that would be a hazard for fire and things of that kind. The bill that finally went through the legislature--

--this was before the other bill went through and went up to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court affirmed.

Brown: Now, with that bill, Pennsylvania had stretched this thing of what we call

the taking private property for public use

Brown: beyond what had ordinarily been the concept. It was here in the Parking Authority who had the question of condemning it. They had to have the right to condemn. Condemning land and making it available to shelter cars--

Brown: --of old people who were able to have automobiles at a certain amount. What we are considering the law--

Brown: as being beneficial to the public use. Then they-- the other bills came along

Brown: Without any question after the two bills were sustained. The Parking Authority and the Urban Redevelopment Authority, which, uh, as you probabaly know is the subject of a great controversy in Saint Peter's Church.

Brown: There was-- there was a situation in which I had I became involved in after I became a judge. Although we had been in the legislature when the Authority Act was written and went it went up to be sustained by the Supreme Court, it was when I was here as a judge that I, uh, got involved in the famous Saint Peter's Church case, which points up at the, uh,--

Brown: -- of this idea of building to rid the city of

Brown: unsightly--

Brown: --structures and things and to properly--

Brown: --utilize the land for purposes that the land could not have been utilized

Brown: for at the time. Before this Urban Redevelopment Authority was sustained.

Brown: I don't know whether the Saint Peter's Church incident is, in your opinion, anything to point out --this whole building program. but to me, it does represent them. I think it's important as a community reaction. Well, as a community reaction, I'm not so sure I can speak against in that, except for the fact that we in the legislature, I mean, when the case was before me here, we had crowds and we had picketing and we had everything. Speaker: Well,that's what I meant by the community kind of reaction. Brown: Well, the community--I don't recall there were any firebombs or anything, but there were pickets and there were marching and there were street meetings. You'd have to know probably that area better where the--

Brown: Civic Arena is now and where Chatham Center is located on Washington Plaza. You'd have to know how, uh,

Brown: Natural it was for the people who lived in and around there to rebel and do all they could do and it was from violence that I remember. [simultaneous talking] To keep peaceful picketing to keep that area. As it was, it was an area where we had and I represented that area in the legislature for 15 years. I think I kind of must have had 15 different nationalities within that area. And they all so far as I know, lived peacefully, predominantly in certain spots--

Italians. Greeks. Syrians. Negroes. Irish. Jewish.

Brown: They were all in that area where you lived, and some of these houses were pretty old. It was the old part of the city where the Civic Arena is now. Where the civic meeting was held. Chatham wasn't sent Washington Flatter'd pleasure. It wasn't Saint

Kurtzman: Patrick's. Really? A Italian Catholic church, Saint Peter's I mean, Saint Peter, Saint Peter's.

Brown: Well, that was the one of the questions before me was, was it envisioned even when the Urban Redevelopment Act was sustained by the Supreme Court, was it envisioned that a man's house could be torn down to make room for a cocktail lounge? That's the argument that their counsel put before the Pope asking the Pope to see what role he would play--

asking the Pope to see the role he would play. And that's what the paper

Brown: said. And that's well, there's some truth in every statement, although it might seem somewhat ridiculous. But on the site where Saint-- where Chatham Center is now--

--there was this beautiful structure to Saint Peter's Church.

Brown: The Saint Peter's Church had been sustained by the individual parishioners rather than.

Brown: by the Catholic diocese. And when the

Brown: Urban Redevelopment Authority wanted to condemn the church to put Chatham Centre where it is now, and to make all of that land from Washington Street west toward Downtown commercial instead of residential, there was this community upheaval. The case came before me in the rotation, of course.

Brown: The trustees of the church brought an action in equity to restrain the bishop and to restrain the Urban Redevelopment Authority from

Brown: executing their right of eminent domain. And that was the legal question

Brown: before me. For the first time we know that the court of appellate jurisdiction has sustained the right of a governmental body like [undecipherable] and body, like the Urban Redevelopment Authority, to condemn by Right of Eminent Domain. a church of worship. So their argument was that this was--

Brown: contrary to the Constitution and was a violation of the Constitution because of the First Amendment,that you can't interfere with a man's right to worship. And they could tear down one church and--

Brown: --then they can tear down all churches and property crime. Personal shelving where he could go into worship. So that was the argument not only before our court, which was the opinion and.

Brown: And there were some precedents.

And one of them was the famous decision of Justice Holmes, which didn't have anything to do with urban redevelopment.

Brown: But it had to do with th right of a man to exercise his fundamental rights. He has that right so long as that right isn't going to interfere with other people. Justice Holmes made the decision that you have a right to freedom of speech, but you can't holler, fire, in a crowded theater, you can't use a gun, you can't use force, uh, With those decisions in that vein, we had no decision on this point in Pennsylvania or anywhere else at that time. We wrote our opinion, and while we did not agree personally.

Brown: With the Urban Redevelopment Authority with that of. All right. First thing, we got to stay relevant and.

Brown: Decide the case on what the law says, and that's what we did. Of course, the United States Supreme Court refused

Brown: to take jurisdiction and counsel. You have to take your seat, which, of course, he didn't do like that. It was in the Saint Peter's Church and the other.

Brown: The first, which I always thought it's basic to our belief that the law doesn't grow this. I mean by that. There was nothing that that we could envision.

Brown: That we could follow as a precedent that satisfied a legal precedent to satisfy you that the others we ought.

Brown: To allow such a movement where a man's house can be taken because those people experienced great hardships from other elderly people. They could not get mortgages, long-term mortgages to get homes, and they couldn't buy homes for the money that they got for these properties anywhere because they had kept these properties up. You know, the flowers that they--

Brown: Used to have, which don't make a house, but the properties were in these neighborhoods that were very, very worthless. Or the situation there. In certain spots, you see the houses that were.

Brown: Survey used for this book to those people who were there. The only generation.

Brown: of the Italians and the Irish refugee population is

Brown: Opposed to it. They felt strongly about this, that there wasn't anything we could do.

Brown: But, as I say, there was no it this far from anything like that. I know a lot of you say.

Brown: Well, now, going back to the Pittsburgh Package. We had, as I recall, at that time, the movement of minorities for a better life in Pittsburgh. A life to participate. Now, I don't say, I can't say that that grew out of the Pittsburgh Package, but it came along around about the same time. And I think all of these movements, there was some generation, I mean, those people were generating the spirit that we got to do something.

Brown: And one of the--

Brown: --things that went along with the Pittsburgh Package, but not a part of it from the standpoint of the building and structure and elimination of bad housing and things of that kind was is the question of school teachers. In the City of Pittsburgh.

Sounds like it has no connection at all with these building of buildings and building of parking lots. Building of authority. I mean, hotels, building of the Civic Arena--

Brown: Building out the university, then building a gym hall and additions to the hospitals. But it was all part of a movement of people.

Brown: And I think that people wanted a better deal at that time. Probably surprised that Howard, did you know there was a singing teacher in the City of Pittsburgh, a Negro teacher in the school in the City of Pittsburgh, and I won..

Brown: We were able to get through the legislature a resolution directing a legislative committee to come here and investigate the school board so that you find a--

Kurtzman: Member of the school board. How's that? Were you then a member of the school board? [simultaneous talking]

Brown: I was in the legislature because I introduced the resolution and this resolution was was introduced with the same feeling that we had introduced the legislature. I think it was a 37 or 39 to investigate academic freedom, academic change in Pittsburgh. We were groping in the dark there because--

--there wasn't any precedent for it at all.

Brown: We asked the legislature to come and get a look into the question.

Back in 1909 of freedom, you know, what happened in that long period

Brown: And the other one that came later on where we asked the legislature to come and

see what was doing well in school and do it.

Brown: Well, the first was the legal question involved as to whether or not they had the power to do that simply because an appropriation was being made from they were not satisfying orientated.

As they are now, especially in Pittsburgh.

Brown: State schools. They were private institutions. Back then, at that time, though, the legislature did send a committee to. You say, well, why didn't the courts do? Well, we couldn't go into the courts because, after all.

We would be met at the threshold of discretion, of discretion of the court, and we would.

Brown: Be thrown out unless we could show.

A capricious abuse of discretion, which is a very difficult thing to show. But we.

Brown: Were able by.

The legislative mandate. To get access to the books. And I know that. Invented made application schoolboy's down.

Brown: Well before we could finish the legislative investigation doors.

What what has been.

Brown: Accomplished, you see in the last 15 years is currently considering how far we had to come into.

The program. And I say that there wasn't that I was in the legislature in 1945. It wasn't as soon as. It's. We had.

Brown: Some experience. This came a little later on in the university here in the medical school. At that time, there hadn't been a Negro doctor graduated from the medical school since 1919, I think it was

15 or something of that kind. He was the single Negro on the staff of a single hospital.

Brown: The hospital now has the renaissance here. So what is happening? Although, I didn't know whether we will ever be able

Brown: to say that this, what you might call, the

Brown: opening up to minorities, especially Negroes, was the result of the Pittsburgh Package. It all was going on here and it was making its impact. One was making its impact in the financials and running over and grabbing houses for cocktail lounges. That's what Mr. Glass is, the attorney for the parishioners of Saint Peter's.

Brown: As I said, told the Pope that it was to the

Brown: hospitals beginning to get the Negroes on the board. There wasn't a Negro on the board of a single hospital. These two things to begin to to look up a little bit. Kurtzman: Of course, you say you don't see any tangible results of it. [simultaneous talking] Brown: No, that's because nobody preserved what was going there. I think in our own family, I had a brother finished in college there at the University of Pittsburgh, and he wanted to go to medical school.

Brown: My father was a minister of a small church over here on the North Side. So he went out

Brown: one day to see the Dean, and the Dean said, We can't take him in the medical school because we have no hospitals where he can go. That was before the University Presbyterian Hospital and University had no hospital at the time, so they had a medical school in the hospital. Well, what you could do there wasn't anything we could do. But the irony of the thing is that he went we had he had to go out of town to an out of town medical school. He came back and at the time of the death, he was an associate professor at the medical school, the same school that denied him his right to come, because they show you the absurdities of this whole thing. But, as I say, well, I don't know when I said it because I'm trying to say is that there was, during this time of expansion and building and millions and millions of houses moving into sore spot after sore spot

Brown: questions of trying to wrestle with this question of--

Brown: --of traffic and the automobile.

Brown: Was seen was trying to make attract the--

Brown: industry here by cleaning up the rivers and by cleaning up of course, the smoke, the situation. All that did was kept the city, I would say, before the people and then came in all these other matters, which I'm talking about--

Brown: --the question of Negro teachers, and Negro doctors and hospitals and staff at hospitals [?].

Brown: You can imagine that-- as I look back, at it

Brown: It's was just awfully difficult to understand. Existed over that situation.

Kurtzman: What do you think that the mobility-- [simultaneous talking]

Brown: --In this courthouse was a good example of it. But I came to the bar in 1923. There wasn't a single Negro employed in this courthouse above the the position of janitor.

Brown: We had no judges. When I say we, I mean there, of course, should be a Negro judge, but there it is.

Brown: But you've got to look at things realistically. We had the highest elected officer, the highest elected Negro officer in the city of Pittsburgh, well, in the county was an Alderman,

and he only had one room.

Kurtzman: I was wondering, Judge, whether in your observations did the denizens you think bring about a different approach to these problems which resulted in the kind of improvements, or did the improvements come because there was a change in public sentiment?

Brown: I think public sentiment, I don't think the

Brown: Negroes that petitioned the the University of Pittsburgh for change in medical school policy are the Negroes who petitioned--

Brown: And we had meetings and we had some of the most outstanding

Brown: people in the nation here at time and time. Once we had

Brown: Clarence Darrow here

Brown: to make a speech and it was all during the same time. I think he's most outstanding one that I can think of at this particular time.

Brown: And it's hard to say that the Renaissance did this, to activate that movement. It's hard to say, too, that they didn't do it. There was a best that I can say, a movement in the city and people were moving toward a better situation, whether it be the cutting itself off, that some of the situations that they moved to, people had to pay a terrific price when they took down, I forget how many houses there were--

Brown: and the first housing authority that was built here in Bedford--

Brown: the relocating was a terrific thing. Nobody had the expertise, but the housing authority had this arm of eminent domain, and they went up there and well there was

Brown: blocks and blocks-- Kurtzman: But what I was wondering, Judge, is whether or not the mood of the people at the time was, we want something better. [simultaneious talking] Brown: I would think so, and

Brown: and I think it had to be equated

Brown: or demonstrated by the, uh,

Brown: by the thinking and the reach of the people. You know what I mean by that is I don't think by and large, though it was considered a victory, that the majority race, the White race was interested in soil, in Negroes, getting on the staffs of hospitals and getting into university, or becoming teachers. I don't say they were hostile towards-- But I don't think that we that there was then the the the coming together of people of different races in order to probably lift one of those races up to a certain point. I mean, the NAACP when when I first was president of it I remember one time we had exactly $18 in the treasury. All we had and we were facing a suit of first impression and we couldn't go out and and raise the money. That was the Avalon swimming pool case, which

Brown: was a case of first impression as to whether or not swimming pool was a part of the

Brown: City government.

Brown: That couldn't be denied. The borough government just happened down in Avalon, the borough. In other words,

Brown: we were struggling then. We had very, very few people that were struggling that that were with us, that are even Negroes or anybody else, that fighting for anything that I'm doing, or else we wouldn't have had a situation where we had what I believe the first Negro

that was elected to the legislature, which is now

Brown: considered a common job if you want it and a lot of people don't even want it. So, I think you were right that there was a there there in the urge of people to better their condition, that they will probably work harder in those things that are close to them. The bankers

Brown: I think they must have worked hard, although I don't know because it seems that the legislation was rife

Brown: with eminent domain, the tax structure was changed by a certain legislation. The money flowed in. Now, the money must have been here before. It didn't flow in just the day these things passed.

Brown: But. And the millions and millions of dollars was-- Kurtzman: Well, what--

Kurtzman: What I had to judge is the the conditions were ripe for the Renaissance. In other words, the public wanted a change. They were becoming unhappy with the dreary conditions that existed in the City of Pittsburgh and at all levels education and and business activities, to downtown and so forth. And and the point that I was trying to find out your reaction, whether if this is true, then really one of the sort of the requirements for for a community development program of that magnitude is a desire on the part of community to be enlightened. I have a seminar in this on the Pittsburgh Renaissance, and I was saying that I thought that the government officials, the mayors, the governors, presidents can set a pattern of public behavior sometime. In other words, if you stress the beauty of Pittsburgh and the need for for improving it, the public will follow you. If, on the other hand, you stress the dollar and say, well, we've got to save taxes and therefore we can't afford this and we can't afford that, the community will take that attitude. Brown: No question about that.

Brown: I think, I think that if the cities are going to be saved. I don't say that Pittsburgh has been entirely saved. It's had a breather. I know that. I think it will be more of that.

Brown: So, that is people are trying to

Brown: work within the sphere of their competence. But after all, who's going to work with the bankers except the bankers? And who's going to build houses?

Brown: Except, well, certain few places will be built for people who have the income to live, but they're not going to be that type. Buying into condominiums and the other places that are booming now. I'm not convinced that is going to be in

Brown: the leadership of

Brown: this state to give

Brown: better housing. And as you know, while we've done a whole lot in housing.

Brown: We've got still a whole lot to do yet. Before there's adequate housing for every person. So, you know--

Howard: I wanted to put this in a little bit broader perspective, thinking about steps we might take from here to interview other people knowledgeable about the same period. I wonder if start with if you could say just a little bit more about your own family and then broaden from that to think of some of the other leading, especially Negro families in this period prior to World War Two. Brown: Well. I'm not so sure that I want to do that because I sure don't want to be saying that our family took the lead in anything. Of course, my wife is very interested in practically every organization that I know of in town that she could and had the time to do.

Brown: My brother was, as I said, two months ago, came back from university and was associate professor, specialized in diseases of the chest and [unintelligible]. He died about six years ago. Uh, I had another brother that died who was a lawyer that he went to practice with out in Detroit. He died in Detroit.

Brown: The only two of us left.

Brown: Now, my father died some time ago, and the mother died during the First World War. And two of us left. However, I

Brown: I, I'm saying that not to say that, uh, I'm ducking the question entirely, but I don't think that is germane, because my family, first of all, is so small outside of Byrd, there's nobody to carry on for our family after the wife.

Brown: The struggle. We have only one son. Well, I was.

Howard: Thinking about my own background in Iowa and my father having been a lawyer. There are there were a certain number of individuals who played because of their position, prominent roles. It was interesting to know how it how it happened. My father came to Iowa and when he came to Iowa. And I think that one of the things that we've just beginning to to discuss this morning in our meeting on this is that Professor Hays is pointing out that how the Mellons were not were late comers to the social structure really of of Pittsburgh. And that was really quite a new perspective on it. And I wondered from the point of view of the Negro community. Lewises for example, go back quite a number of generations, don't they? Brown: Which. Lewis? Howard: The dentist? Brown: Well, yes. I think on his mother's side, they go back to the well before or during the Civil War.

Brown: I think somebody came up here from Maryland or something of that kind. I don't know too much about it, but, uh.

Brown: Could you get into difficult situations? Uh, our family, I guess the

Brown: The taking the wife and and my brother and myself

Brown: And Byrd, I guess as a family.

Brown: in the community

Brown: Life, I think have been in the community life more than any other Negro family.

Brown: But, you said you want to take me.

Brown: I myself could be beneficial to things in the community and he instances and. [unintelligible]

Brown: Going was rough, too. to be elected, I was always elected on both tickets.

Brown: I never had any trouble that and I was elected three times as a judge and one time I believe in chairman and senator.

Howard: How could I approach it this way? Judge Brown This way. What about organizationally? I mean, how far back do the Frogs go or the various organizations that had a that formed prior to the fabric of the community? Brown: Well, I don't know that there is any organization outside of the church that has formed.

Brown: Any fabric in the community that goes back for any time. I would say that the

Brown: two organizations that survived, a lot of them started, but they didn't get anywhere. But the two organizations that survive outside of the church

Brown: would be the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the Urban League. Yes.

Brown: And there are many, many other organizations that have gone and some of them before their lives did a good job of some little thing that you organization that and and survive challenge from other organizations. And they're still active

Brown: today with the NAACP and the Urban League.

Brown: I don't I wouldn't count organizations like the Frogs that says they would be, in my opinion, the same as me as a fraternal organization without the aprons.

Brown: But, you know--

Howard: --not much of a civic role, more social, civic, social role altogether. Brown: I would say that those two organizations outside of the church. Howard: Now, of course, there would be the Pittsburgh Courier. Well, the Pittsburgh Courier, though, survived up to a certain time. And then if it hadn't been bailed out, it wouldn't have been any Pittsburgh Courier. So, from if you're going into the standpoint of business, then I would say that Pittsburgh Courier, the Original Pittsburgh Courier, and the New Pittsburgh Courier

Brown: which is, you know, is still an organization out of Chicago, and the other organization was organized by Vann was orientated to Pittsburgh. And it was a Pittsburgh, you could say it was a Pittsburgh organization. The new Pittsburgh Courier is

Brown: an organization that structurally has its roots here.

Kurtzman: Vann and sold the-- [simultaneous talking]

Brown: Courier. Well, he didn't sell it. It came from in bad ways there. And a, man by the name of Fuller in Chicago, bought the controlling stock. And I don't know whether.

Brown: It was the controlling voting stock or whatever it was that he bought. But anyway, he and I think Mister Vann held on to the controlling, but I'm sure I didn't represent [unintelligible] . So, uh, it's--

Brown: It is pretty hard to evaluate things when you don't have guidelines. I see. I have no guidelines.

Brown: Really. Talking hard living here. That's the way to get in trouble.

Kurtzman: No, you're not. Uh, just. Just for record, as well as for to check my own memory, to see how good that is. You were the first Black member of the legislature to come from Allegheny County. Brown; Yes. We had one

Brown: man that was elected just before him, but he died in May.

Kurtzman: And he was told you were the first member of the Black member of the Pittsburgh school board? Brown: That's right. Kurtzman: You were the first Black judge.

Brown: Well, I was the first Black judge in Pennsylvania.

Kurtzman: Oh, in Pennsylvania. I just And so Judge Brown has a lot of firsts. To his record. It's unfortunate. It has to be at first, and it couldn't have been taken for granted. But nevertheless, these are the facts of life-- Brown: I found myself so extended.

Brown: I was first Black on the board of the Housing Authority for the first housing

authority and for the [Pittsburgh] Housing Association this year because the housing start and on the community fund. And so to me that.

Kurtzman: I was telling him how it's coming out just to I know he knew you, but he didn't. He's not a long Pittsburgh resident as I've been. I'm not a Pittsburgh native, but I've lived here a long time. But as a member of the legislature, for example, you were looked upon as the authority on constitutional law.

Brown: Well, that's what they say. I'm sorry that I don't have some of those things that I could pull out and show you. But that was what they said. Yeah.

Kurtzman: And sitting on the sidelines very often I would see that the problem came up and somebody on a piece of legislation, somebody raises the question, well, is it constitutional? They were all returned to Homer Brown and and his decision was well respected by the other members of the legislature, both sides who were here.

Brown: You see that there are some.

Brown: Things that I have with you that I, I, um, I had a fine association there. And legislature, of course. My cessation was largely in the field of the law. It was a narrow field, but it was a delightful one. But it was basic. And only when we chairman of the Judiciary Committee and many, many of the legal questions involving the whole structure of state cooperation and the operation. Clear through that.

Kurtzman: Most of your legislative service. You were the minority party, weren't you?

Brown: No, no.

Kurtzman: We were there during the early.

Brown: Early stage. That was the majority.

Kurtzman: And, well, the House stayed on Democratic for one more.

Brown: The House then became Republican under James. Uh huh.

Kurtzman: But didn't the change in the middle of the James administration changed back?

Brown: The same thing was true of the Senate. It rocked back and forth during the time.

Kurtzman: I was up there. Not as many times as the house, though. No, No. Oh, no. No, no. No, no. The Senate remained.

Brown: All the members of the House were elected.

Brown: At one time and members of the Senate staggered. I never thought I'd experience this change, did seriously interfered with.

Brown: In some legislation because so much of it died in the House of Assembly

Brown: During Sunday. But the only.

Brown: Thing that could have been could have resulted from a change to something that.

Brown: We knew that Pennsylvanians were not ready for and that was a unicameral government. So. Um.

Howard: Have you thought about or had a chance to assemble any of this past material? You said you had some clippings upstairs or something like that. Brown: We have tremendous amount of it-- Howard: I was wondering if it would be possible or if you had plans in terms of how some students might help organize or. Well, yes, I would do a lot of it up there that our staff hasn't.

Brown: Been able over the years that I've been here to the Senate. So just back away, up stairs on the floor, we have our executive offices. For secretary offices [unintelligible]

Howard: I was thinking about I did my thesis on Frank Murphy, Baltimore from Detroit. Justice Murphy and I was his family made available for me family records and his own personal collection. I know that Leroy Irvis has made available on a continuing basis his records for the university for part of this historical thing. And I wonder if you'd thought about that. Brown: Well, I hadn't thought about it.

Brown: Nobody wants to look at it. [laughs]

Howard: And it's possible to do that. Oh, yeah? Well, I think that might be a, uh, a very suitable kind of follow up kind of thing. They are in this building. Brown: Yes, hmm,hmm. Howard: So that some of these example, the preamble you mentioned or some of the legal opinions and other things, we might be able to assemble some of this material. Brown: Oh, I think you could. I haven't seen it for many years. I filed these clippings away and I haven't seen some of them since that time and had any use for it.

Kurtzman: So it's surprising how much history you can reconstruct from newspaper clippings. Brown: Oh, yes, yes.

Brown: Yes, yes. Well, I like them. I think that I can put my hand on. It's a lot better than I expected way up there.

Brown: And can get into it if I'd have to.

Brown: I don't know just where it is at the divide, the actual work of the court from these trucks or the work in the

Brown: Legislature from these clippings. I had taken me a long time to do that. Unfortunately, I didn't keep them some.

Brown: I didn't have someone

Brown: to file them. As things went on and you got all this stack and stuff.

Brown: Yeah, it--

Kurtzman: Might serve a double purpose for your sake to assemble them and organize them and for our sake to get out from it some very valuable

Kurtzman: material. I had the pleasure of going through James Hillman's prior to his death. His daughter made it his material available. I don't know whether those have been taped to. I sat in his office for her home for a couple of days and dictated tape after tape from reading the reading the records. So there's really very, very corrects all the dates and all the names of people and the spellings and all that. That would be most it would really be a very helpful. Ah, well, we've covered about an hour and I've gotten a great deal out of this. Brown: Well, I'm glad you have. We would be happy to follow through on this. Whatever you want us to do, you let us know. Howard: All right. All right. One thing. We'll hope that we have a---

Kurtzman: We had a hearing aid and we always. What The judge said something. His hearing aid didn't work that he didn't want to hear or what he wanted to hear, that it worked. And so you you have the advantage by physical disability. You use--

Brown: It. Talking all day, too, because we have it now what we call a conciliation list.

Brown: Incidentally, our courts have decided the other day we the most up to

Brown: Date court on most cases in the United States of.

Brown: Population coverage of a million and a half people. We cover those values, counting your particulars. And it takes about 19 months for a case to come up here, specially in civil case. And. Whereas, in Chicago, it takes four and a

Brown: half years, I think Chicago is the worst culprit of all. So that's because we do a lot of talking, but we're doing a lot of talking. You can't get something accomplished when you're hollering and carrying on.

Brown: I've found if you're really not getting much done. And so--. [tape ends]