Patrick, Rev. LeRoy, February 18, 2002, tape 1, side 1

Michael Snow: This is--this is tape one of a state and local government archives interview with Reverend LeRoy Patrick.

Reverend LeRoy Patrick: No, I told you, that's a capital R-O-Y there. So.

Patrick: I...[pause]

Patrick: I'd be recognized either way. But anyway, I prefer the capital R and I've been using it for years and years. I didn't start out with the Capital R now, but I discovered that in high school, I think. That's the way it's going to be from here on in, but nobody uses it except me.

Snow: Amiri Baraka when he was LeRoi Jones. Amiri Baraka used to go by Le Roi

Patrick: Yeah, yeah. He had a-he was R-O-I--Roi, though. Snow: So you're-- Patrick: Didn't have R-O-Y. Yeah, as I remember. Because he didn't spell--he's not spelling it correctly.

Snow: Okay. Um, Reverend Patrick is pastor emeritus of Bethesda Presbyterian Church. A former member and president of the Pittsburgh School Board. Former member and chair of the Pennsylvania Black Democratic Committee and a member of numerous other boards. It is February 18th, 2002. The interviewer is Michael Snow of the Archive Service Center of the University of Pittsburgh. And we are sitting in. Reverend Patrick's dining room in the Oakland neighborhood of Pittsburgh.

Patrick: 128 North Craig Street. Snow: All right. LeRoy: Apartment 312. They probably have torn this down by the time this thing is read by anybody. Snow: Possibly. LeRoy: Because it's an old building. It's 40 or 50 years old now.

Snow: Could you begin by stating your full name and date of birth?

Patrick: My full name is LeRoy. First name, and I have no middle name. LeRoy. Patrick. And the LeRoy is one word. My birth is November 17, 1915. But strangely enough, when I--some years ago, ordered a passport and had to call--go right to South Carolina to get my birth certificate. Their record is that my birth date is November 29th, 1917. My feeling is back in 1917, the doctor who delivered me probably didn't send in the record until 29 because my mother told me I was born on November 17th and I figured that since she was there, she should know when I was born. And I have always used November 17th. But on this particular occasion, I had to change it because the whoever it was who issued passports. So, yes, this is November. Okay. All right. I rather be, you know, now, I wish we could take off about ten years and say November 17th, 1927, but we can't do that now. So at 86. I'm content to go with the--I'm still going with the 70 and I'm November 17th, 1915. That's my date of birth. Snow: Great.

Snow: Where? What town in South Carolina were you born in?

Patrick: I always say Charleston. Actually, it's about 15 miles out of Charleston, a little place called, I believe, Adam's Run. So I never tell anybody. Adam's run. But I say Adam's Run-- What? Where? How, what? No, I say, Charleston, that settles it. So I always say, I'm born in Charleston. I said, okay. All right. So I'm not really a Charlestonian. I just pretend to be one. Snow: Okay. Patrick: All right.

Snow: Wonderful. And what were your parents names?

Patrick: My dad was Edward Patrick. My mother was Loretta Patrick.

Snow: And what was her maiden name?

Patrick: Gordon.

Snow: And do you remember when and where they were born?

Snow: No?

Patrick: Except from around where I was born. It would be in that vicinity. So if you said that, you know, it would be as near as I could get unless somebody would search some records. I don't know what it would be. I was wrong--I think the post office is called Osborne. Osborne Post Office. But the place is called Adams Run. There was a general store and there was a post office. There were crossroads. I remember. I remember very much about it.

Snow: And the Pittsburgh Courier said that you grew up in Philadelphia.

Patrick: From Adams Run, we moved to Florida. I think it was in 1925. I remember I was very young. We lived in Florida for a couple of years and we moved to Philadelphia. In 1927, I believe. So I say I am a Philadelphian because I was, what, 12 years old? By that time. I finished the grade schools and Philadelphia High School in Philadelphia and lived there until I left. Until I became grown.

Snow: Wonderful.

Patrick: So I'm. [chimes sound] That's why someone asked me, who--where are you from? Philadelphia. And that settles it. Where were you born? All right, so I have to tell her where I was born. They wouldn't want to know everything then. You know I don't. I don't. There's no point in my fudging it. I was born in Adam's Run, South Carolina, but I tell you, Adam's Run. Where is that? Is that. Well, that's Charleston. Oh, you say. Oh, all right. Don't you feel comfortable then, with me?

Snow: Do you know why your family moved to Florida? Patrick: What? Snow: Do you know why your family moved to Florida and then Philadelphia?

Patrick: My family left Adams Run because there was no work. My dad was a lumberman and he had us--was it two--four horses. What did that make a team for? He used to take logs to the what? What do you call it? What do you do? Sawing up logs?

Snow: The sawmill. Patrick: Huh? Snow: A sawmill?

Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. He took logs to the sawmill, but then they ran out of the. As I recall, that there were no, no, no more trees. That--that he--that the company--I don't know. I don't know for whom he's working. But anyway, there was no more work for him, so he had to get rid of that stuff. He had to find work. There was no work around there. He had heard there was work in Florida. He went down there. He settled himself and then sent for his family, sent for us. Then we went to Florida from 1927. There was no work in Florida. So we're going to--we're going to go to New York. He'd heard there was work in New York. So we got in our little sliver, our Ford, and we started on the highway. And we finally landed in Philadelphia where my mother had a sister living in Philadelphia. And we said, we'll spend the night a week or so with her since they had not seen each other for a long time. And we never did get to New York. We decided--my daddy decided to stay in Philadelphia, and he found some work there. That was in '27. And then '29 came October--October 29th, 1929.

Snow: That sounds right.

Patrick: The bottom fell out of everything and fell out of our lives because we were--he was--well, I was still a youngster. But it was touch and go, you know. Family live. Let's work. He can pick up here and pick up there and pick up the other place. That thing continued until, well, all through. I went into high school and finished high school in '33 and the Depression was still on. So you pick, you pick up odd jobs. You know, there was no there was no regular work that that he could find. So I remember saying to people on the street selling apples $0.05 a piece, those apples look very good. They were nice, large red apples. But I was never able to buy red apples. I didn't have the $0.05. That's why we went to Philadelphia and we stayed there because it looked all right at first. But I suppose nowhere during those years would have been a good place to be. The best place to begin would have been where? Dead somewhere, you know, because it was those were very rough years for millions of people. And they remained rough until what, we went into war. Snow: Right. Patrick: Yeah. That's what really took us out of the Depression. So that's why I landed. So I speak now by being a Philadelphian. And and so I am.

Snow: And did your mother work outside the home or work as--?

Patrick: From time to time? Snow: Did she? Get work in a restaurant as I remember she was once a worked for Horn and Hardart as a salad girl. You sell--you make it. The salad, now you serve the salads. That's about all I remember what she did, but she did other jobs from time to time. But there was little that she could do--that she could find to do. From I don't know what--I don't remember where my dad worked. He worked all over the town. He. He worked for a while for Philadelphia Electric Company and laid off there and. All our jobs, a lot of smaller companies. So I don't--I don't know where. But there was no permanency. That's--the point I'm making is that there was no permanent source of income for the family. Snow: Sure.

Snow: I'd read that during the Great Depression, two thirds--during the Great Depression, two thirds of African Americans qualified for emergency relief and work relief, but only one third received it. Did your family?

Patrick: Well? They gave us what we--I can remember taking a, I guess it was a food voucher that came to the house because of my dad must have gone on wherever they were and going to the ACME American Stores. That's a Philadelphia, something like A&P. It was not a A&P. It was American Stores as I recall that--the--there was a corner store and I remember going in there with [??] after getting a getting a--food and giving them the voucher. Then the voucher for us for X number of dollars and then he would figure up X number of you know, until I got--til I spent my voucher. They had me go because what I'm, what, 12 years old or 13 years? 14? No. I. I could. I could add two plus two equals four. Four plus four equals eight, you know? So go LeRoy, go, go get the food. [laughs] So LeRoy had to go get the food. So it was. I feel what we. But here again, as I recall, it must have been a--sporadic thing because I don't remember going every week. Snow: Okay. Patrick: You know, I don't know why and why and I've never even thought about it until this moment. But why didn't I go every week? Because the voucher apparently--I don't know whether he had to go get the voucher or whether they mail the voucher. I don't, I don't know how that happened, but I only remember using it several times, but I don't remember using it regularly. You know, week after week. So what do we do in between? Well, I don't know. We manage. Snow: Yes Patrick: You manage our best way you could. I don't know. But we all. We were never hungry. Let me put it like that. Snow: Ok. Patrick: My dad always managed to have food for us and--and we always could pay the rent, so we never went out on the streets.

Snow: That's pretty unusual for then.

Patrick: I mean, he might have been behind, but he--at least the landlord never put us on the streets. [laughs] So I guess he did all right. I don't know. I was not conscious of that element in our lives. Um, I remember he made a shoeshine box for me and my brother, and I remember shining shoes on Market Street. Going up on a--on a Saturday going up and you shine a shoe. You got $0.05 for a shoe shine. That was, you know, five shoes. You got a quarter. And sometimes the guy'd be generous, give you an extra nickel. So you got a dime. By golly, you got a dime. [laughs] Oh...[laughs] oh. Shoeshine boy. Shoeshine boy. I tell you. But when I see these fellows now with their boxes, it flashes in my mind that I didn't have a stand. There were, as I recall, there were--some--some stores had a stand in front of the store and there was a Black man shining shoes for--but I had my little box over my shoulder, which my dad had made [laughs], and I was a shoeshine. Let me see. You know, I know you wouldn't need a shoeshine, you son.

Patrick: I got a fellow shoeshine, you know. [laughs] But then I had a little pocket change. And when my dad had any money, he'd give me a dollar--slip a dollar to me, you know? You know, if he could spare it, he would. He was not--he was not--he was generous when he could afford generous. Snow: Right. Patrick: And so was my mother, when she was working, when she'd work, she would. Saw that I--well, I would, I would--well they would give me money to to go to high school. I went to Central High. We were living on South 10th Street and I started going to South Philadelphia High. I elected to go to Central High, which is at Broad and Green Street. And they would give me the $0.15 I needed for car fare. You know, it was--from my place up to school. And sometimes I'd walk and I'd save the $0.15. [laughs] But I had--depends on the weather, you know. So what I'm--what I'm saying is that it was a matter of touch and go. What were--those little money around. Why? You had other chance to--to get a little bit. A little bit of it. Snow: Yes. Patrick: So.

Snow: And how were race and ethnic relations in Central High at that time? Patrick: What? Snow: How were race and ethnic relations and tensions in Central High at the time?

Patrick: I mean, was there racism, race? Snow: Yes. Patrick: Oh, yes. There's racism, as you just sort of given. You weren't--but I don't. Only once do I remember having to run from any race. My brother and I, said another kid was somewhere over. And I must have walked because I remember being in what would be the vicinity of University of Pennsylvania, and we must have been, what, 13 or 14, something like that. And some white kids said, look at those, let's go get them. So we took off. They didn't get us. We got away. Well, now, I don't know whether that was a--was that a sporadic thing on their part, but in our where we were living, we were living among Italians. We did not have any race problem. We didn't associate, but there was no--sometimes we played baseball together and on the streets, you know, or that sort of thing. But it was not a race. Race was not a part of our problem. It was only when you ventured out of your neighborhood that you might, you might run into strangers. You know, strangers were always suspect. Snow: Yes. Patrick: So [laughs] so, but I don't remember wandering out of the neighborhood because might go to South Street. Well, that's a busy business street. Still a business street in Philadelphia. And you just to be on that street was to be in an exciting then you went up to Market Street that's in the center of town. But I didn't have any buddies that I hang out with, you know, so I'd pick up somebody walking along [??]. But, um. So I--maybe because I was somewhat of a loner, I never was part of any any gang that was--was--that might have been operating. Partly, I think, because once I discovered the Philadelphia Free Library, I was--I had a library card.

Patrick: And spent time with books, getting at books and reading them at home, reading them in the library. So I'm trying to think of why I was not in a group, and I think maybe that's why because I don't recall others. I recall a couple fellow, Hugo Hyde, a friend of mine in high school who was also a member of the library, and he said, Have you read this book? And I said, Oh, yeah, I read that book. How about this one? I know I have that. You know. Both of us borrowed a book from the library, but to read it and get it back, then get another book out, it was exciting for me. I was then in high school, I think I was probably, discovered that library when I was about the eighth grade. Because I can remember using it during high school years. Then there was a main library in Parkway on Park. You know Philadelphia at all? Snow: Some. Patrick: Parkway is the big, you know, leading to the Art Museum and the the--as you go toward the Art Museum, the--the library, the main branch of the library sitting off to the right. And when I discovered that--that was a. Who was Looked into the Home of Chapman's Homer? [laughs] It was such an exciting thing for me to find that. I was at the little branch on South Street to find this big library, and I--I frequented that. So it was a nice place to go to and there were many, many books to just look at and then you pick out a book and you read it. It was a very exciting time. A time of discovery for me.

Snow: It sounds wonderful, actually. Patrick: Huh? Snow: It sounds wonderful.

Patrick: I found it wonderful. Was it Shelly or who was, "On First Looking Into Chapman's Homer?" You know--you know that work, you know. Anyway, one of the romantic poets used--has a sonnet on one of those. He discovered Homer through a man--and I've never seen I--a man named Chapman had translated Homer when he discovered Homer. And I've always remembered that because that was something of what I felt when I got this whole [chimes sound] library of books that were mine. It was great. It was great. I don't. I still--I, I--still love books. Books that I have now, I, I just got that book on the table there. You see, that Maida Springer. Eric Springer's mother. You know. Eric Springer? Snow: Yes. Patrick: He's a hero, Eric. It's his mother, Maida, is his mother. And she--this book. Well, Ava, what--who wrote it? She didn't write it. She's...anyway, a book about, uh, Yvette Richards. She's--this book was the story of her life. She was a labor person way back there. She was with the New York Garment Workers Union. Snow: Oh, my. Patrick: Dubinsky, Dubinsky, and the other. So anyway, she put out the book and she had a signing for it. And, and I didn't, I didn't get to the signing. But I call the house afterwards and Cecile said, I'll bring you the book. So she signed it. See, Maida Springer Kemp, just--just--just last year. And I've had it, but I'm just starting to read it. I didn't get through it yet.

Patrick: I have--I got a couple of books I started reading and I didn't get through yet. Well, I said that to say that that I have--you get hooked with books. Snow: Yes. Patrick: And you, you find that. Well, I'm going to have to finish this because she was a black woman who was remarkably active in the labor movement with the International Ladies Garment Workers Union, which is New York. And she's a little woman. Little by I mean, maybe five feet and what 115 pounds.She's now 90--90 years old. I saw her last night, as a matter of fact, at Grace Memorial Church. Johnny, Johnny Monroe had a program. On. [pause] Program, maybe it will come to me. Anyway, the first pastor that founded Grace Church, who also was born in 1815 and escaped as a slave, he and his family and finally became--got some education and became Minister of Grace Church, among other things. Snow: Right. Patrick: So they they were having a service honoring him, as they did last year and giving out awards. And she gave out one of the awards to Gazelle, I think, Gazelle. Who's the woman? NAACP person, NAACP executive. Not, not Tim Seekin [??], but the executive they hired. Her name won't come to me, though. But anyway, she gave it. So I had to mention something too, about it. And then I said I must finish reading your book because it was interesting. Anyway, I digress, but this is--that goes back to when I discovered books.

Snow: With your--with your love of books, were your teachers steering you towards scholarly work in college or--or towards a career?

Patrick: In my career?

Snow: Well, in in high school, what career were your teachers steering you towards?

Patrick: Well, the teachers--I don't remember mine, the teachers' names. I went to Central High, as I said, and we were--we were Blacks in the school, but it was mostly a Jewish school. Snow: Was it?Patrick: When there was a Jewish holiday, the halls were [laughs] not empty because it was not a school holiday, it was just their holiday. But you--you were conscious. So they never--we Blacks were there. Well, in a sense on sufferance, I guess. [laughs] But we were there by right, of course. But I...I remember being in the--in high school [unintelligble] most of my Black brothers--it was a boys school, Central is boys around the corner, two blocks away at 17th and Spring Garden is the girls high school, which is the girls. And Central was, was--it is a good school. They gave a Bachelor of Arts degree which law [??] has that it, in its early days--it was founded in the 1800s or something--want to take that degree and move into his third year in college. You know, it was--it was that kind of rigorous school. Well, and my Black brothers and I were in the industrial arts, and they were runners, and they were on the--I don't remember them being some of them on the basketball team. I'm not a sports person. So I didn't go for that. I went into debating club and the dramatic club. But in this point I'm getting to, I was never allowed to debate, even when I was a senior. The--I could be the timekeeper, but I was never appointed as one of the debaters. It wasn't till I got into college that I was actually--I mean, I could debate in the club meeting, but when we would go against South Philadelphia High or other sort of high, it was always the white guys who were debaters.

Patrick: And and I was--and that was the way the world was. I didn't feel--I don't recall feeling angry because that well, you know, that's the way things were. So you just accept things like that and the debating and the dramatic club. I was never in a play. I could help move the furniture around on the stage as I did. I was well, I was debating. I could be a timekeeper and I was often the timekeeper for the club. And the dramatic club, as I said, move the furniture between action or something like that. But I was never allowed to be in the play itself, I suppose, because the plays they put on didn't have any servants. [laughs] I guess that's the reason. And here again, I don't recall being resentful because I would have quit, you know. But, um, I remember when I when I was going to high school, I told my dad, you know, I think I want to be a civil engineer. I didn't know what a civil engineer was, but I saw the name and he said, now LeRoy, you know, you can't be a civil engineer, you know. I took his word and I never thought. But. He took, we-- I should--we took this sort of thing, the racism, what, you know, as part of the way the world was created and there was no point in being resentful or angry about it, you just accepted it. So in high school, I, I, I accepted.

Patrick: They came, went around and said I was taking an academic course. I didn't know much, but I knew I didn't want an industrial arts course. I knew that. And I had. I had somewhere--I had to take an industrial arts class because I remember making a little gadget one which you could [clattering sound] hang a towel. And I remember taking it home and I'm in the shop class. But I knew this is not what I want to do. This is not, this is just not my thing. So...when I signed up for the academic course, then they came along and said, baby [??], being somebody from the principal's office that they were. They were--they were starting or continuing a classical course. And those who want to be go in room XYZ and sign up for it. So I signed up for the class, of course, which meant that I had to take Greek and Latin. And that's why I guess I remember Homer listening [??], you know, because--and I enjoyed, I had four years of Latin and rather three years of Greek. So in a sense, I was introduced to the kind of things that allowed me to appreciate books, I think. It wasn't that I was out trying to make the, the, the running team or something like that. But...here again, it wasn't--it wasn't really until I became conscious of race and the fact that I was being discriminated against. And that was not during my high school years, but I was conscious that I was I was always the outsider-- Snow: I see. Patrick: -in the, the classroom. The teacher paid no attention. One teacher.

Snow: Excuse me one moment.