Saul, Joseph, November 26, 1975, tape 2, side 1

Speaker1: Um. Has it helped your business at all being in the Labor Zionist organization? What about your family or your marriage or anything? Has it helped that?

Speaker2: No. I mean, this was just. I mean, it had nothing to do. It was just a philosophy of life and I wanted to go on with it. And it gave me a lot of satisfaction. Okay. And I met a lot of outstanding people that normally I would never meet. I'll just give you just one example. When I was in 1920, in Poland, I was in Warsaw. So I went to a lecture and I remembered the name of Somerville, gave the lecture, and I was very much impressed with him. What was his name? Zubovo z. R b u v a l. And I bought this picture and I took it with me in 1963. 43 years later, I opened the Jewish Chronicle of Pittsburgh, and I see Mr. Somerville is coming to lecture to Pittsburgh. I went to my archives. I took out a picture, and I went to the lecture and I walked over to the men and I says, Do you know this man? He says, Why did you keep my picture? I told him, You impressed me very much. And he lived the time in Israel. We lived one year in Israel in 1964, and I told this story to a lady who was the founder of the Habima Theater. I met her through her brother, and five minutes later, after I came to the hotel, the telephone was ringing. He says, This is Mr. Somerville, You're in Israel and you didn't call me. I says, I just came two days ago. I'm coming over right away. It came over. So when I left, the manager of the hotel came over to me, says, Who are you, Mr.

Speaker2: Saul? This is why he says Somerville came to see you. You must be somebody. In the year that we lived in Israel, we met the most outstanding people that are in the cultural life and the theatrical life. That's the name of Mr. Barenboim Mean Anything to You is a world known pianist. His parents called me and everybody. And every night the year that we were in Israel, we were honored everywhere we went. And we saw the most outstanding people. And it should because I was in those organizations. I met the most interesting and the most outstanding people that really influenced my life. And I consider it the greatest thing that I had, because if you have 1 million or 100 million, it doesn't mean there's much difference. But if you meet the outstanding people in the world of culture, it means a lot. And just being an ordinary manager of a small clothing store, I met the most outstanding people. I'll give you another example. In 1944, William Gropper, who was one of the outstanding painters in the United States, won the third prize in the Carnegie Museum exhibition. I wrote him a letter and I asked him, I would like you to come to Pittsburgh since you got a prize and we'll arrange an evening for you. And we had an evening for him right in the center. And the hotels were inside, so he had to stay in our apartment. See? So we spent a week together, and it was one of the outstanding painters in the United States. And I spent a week with me.

Speaker1: That's wonderful. Um, what what economic class do you identify with?

Speaker2: I would say a middle class. Hello. Uh.

Speaker1: Are the, are the other members of the Labor Zionist organization also middle class?

Speaker2: Let's say from lower middle class to middle class.

Speaker1: Are any members of it? Upper class. Would you say?

Speaker2: Except one. One is is a millionaire, a millionaire.

Speaker1: And that person is a member of the Labor Zionist organization.

Speaker2: He gives $300,000 to the Jewish Federation a year.

Speaker1: How did he make it?

Speaker2: His father in law made it.

Speaker1: His father? What?

Speaker2: Father in law started a business. And afterwards he developed. And it's on the New York Stock Exchange. I think if he keeps up his membership and his interest.

Speaker1: Does membership in the Labor Zionist organization affect your position outside of the Jewish community at all? No. Okay. Do you. What do you remember about the Irene Kaufmann? The old Irene Kaufmann settlement?

Speaker2: I remember a lot because Mr.. What was his name? The end of for many, many years of the Irene Kaufmann settlement. What's his name? You will come to me. He is a known nationally known person in the university. There is a foundation on his name. She was a very good friend of mine and we used to arrange a lot of things in the government settlement.

Speaker1: So you were active in the Army conference? No.

Speaker2: I just was with this man who was the director of the office.

Speaker1: That was in the. In the Hill. Right. Yeah. How long was it? When did it move out of the hill?

Speaker2: Well, I think it moved out of the hill over 30 years ago.

Speaker1: What about Anna Heldman? Do you remember her?

Speaker2: Yes, She was the she was the secretary to Mr..

Speaker3: But this is.

Speaker2: No. Oh.

Speaker1: Do you remember their crusades to clean up Pittsburgh?

Speaker3: No, I wasn't.

Speaker1: What do you remember about the red light district in the hill in the 20s?

Speaker2: The red light district in Pittsburgh. See, there was just a small light near Fifth Avenue, Elm Street and Congress Street and Cornwall Street. And it was very close to the store where I worked.

Speaker1: Well. Were they? What kind of people were they?

Speaker3: It was.

Speaker2: Just. It was white. White girls. It was not. It was not a Negro.

Speaker1: They were Jewish? No.

Speaker2: Never. I never I used to know them because they used to pass and bring their boyfriends to the store. And, you know, I was very I mean, I didn't make a fuss about them or so they were very Jewish girl.

Speaker1: They weren't. What ethnic group were they?

Speaker2: This book English. I really. I never knew their names, so.

Speaker1: Okay. What about the founding of Montefiore Hospital? What do you remember about that?

Speaker2: The founding of that came much before my time, but I remember when the present Montefiore Hospital was moved to the present location. See, it was originally on Central Avenue. Oh, yeah, sure. I think it's till about 1925 or 20 6 or 27. I don't remember the exact year, but in the 20s and in the 20s it moved to the present location.

Speaker1: I assume it expanded then when it moved was just.

Speaker2: It ten times.

Speaker1: How was that financed?

Speaker2: Now it's a part of the university.

Speaker1: But when it when it moved.

Speaker3: From.

Speaker2: The Jewish community. It was one of the most important functions of the Jewish community.

Speaker1: When you were growing up, what type of jobs did most Jews have that you knew?

Speaker2: Most of the people worked at the department stores.

Speaker1: They were clerks.

Speaker2: Clerks, salespeople, salespeople was the biggest. And there were just a very small group of Jews were in the Western US working. That's the only industry for the Jews were. And of course. There were many tailors. In the union. They are more committed clothing workers union at a couple hundred members. And also the Stogie Workers union were Jewish.

Speaker1: Where did the clothing workers work? Were there shops in the hills?

Speaker2: They were not on the hill. There were Pittsburgh was a very important factor for trouser industries. Hence, there were maybe ten large factories where hundreds of people were working. And Pittsburgh had about ten of them. Very important. His victories. And two Jews worked in them.

Speaker1: There's a there's an amalgamated union here now. Do they still have Jews in it? No. Is there. Are there factories around here? No.

Speaker2: It's very it's only the few tailors that work in the department stores. Work in the clothing stores that do alteration are members of the union. But it originally it was people that worked in factories.

Speaker1: What about the Stooges? Most of them were Jewish. The workers there.

Speaker2: In between 1900 and 19, 125. It was all Jewish. And the IWW.

Speaker3: Oh, they were, you know.

Speaker2: Not international workers, sort of, but industrial workers of the world.

Speaker2: Yeah, the Wobblies. I see. You know something about the history of the moon.

Speaker1: Uh, were the stogie workers ever organized by any other union besides the Wobblies? No. When did the, uh. When did they go out? When did they go out of business?

Speaker2: In 1925.

Speaker1: What kind of work did those people move into?

Speaker2: Who? They got older and young people didn't go in because it didn't pay. And there was also a Jewish bakers union, which had over 200 members. See, the baker shops were very small and the workers there were all Jews. That baked the special Jewish bread. See? So they all belong to a union Local 44. And that's if you want to know something about a union, there is a man is still alive. Who was the secretary? Ralph Sharon and Albert Street.

Speaker1: What's his last name?

Speaker2: Sugar.

Speaker3: Sugar? Yeah.

Speaker1: He was a baker.

Speaker2: He is a baker still. His date is, but he still is very good. You know, you can tell you a lot about the union.

Speaker1: He was active in 44. Local 44.

Speaker2: 44? Yes.

Speaker1: Is the, uh, the Jewish bakers union is. I mean, the bakers union is still around, right?

Speaker3: Yeah, but.

Speaker3: Jewish. Jewish.

Speaker1: Okay, uh, what do you think of intermarriage?

Speaker2: I mean, it's something that. If you're interested. That. Jewish culture should go on and the Jews should remain as an ethnic group. Of course it interferes. Intermarriage interferes. But since there are 500,000 kids in college going with 10 million, you cannot stop it. And you have to accept it.

Speaker1: But you're not that happy about it.

Speaker2: I wouldn't say I'm happy about it. No. Cause I'm very.

Speaker3: Jewish.

Speaker1: Okay. Have your views on Zionism changed over the years?

Speaker2: Yes, it's it's changed a lot. There was a period where I personally thought that it's possible to organize a Jewish state in Birobidjan. Did you ever hear that name? No. See, in 1928, Biro is Biro began b i g a n o c the Soviet government set aside right near the Chinese border, a territory on the river of biro. Nobody was there that if the Jews wanted to go there, they organize a state. And I thought it will be possible. And I was very active between 1928 and 1930 seven inches that moment.

Speaker1: What was that called?

Speaker2: He called Yiddish colonization. Rusland e i Corps.

Speaker1: Uh, what happened?

Speaker2: Oh, we died the first day just came about 200,000. But the climate was terrible, and there are very few Jews. They still published a Yiddish paper there in Birobidjan.

Speaker3: Yeah.

Speaker2: But. But very few Jews left.

Speaker1: Uh. Do. Do you feel I had anything to do with the attitude of the Soviet government towards it?

Speaker2: Absolutely. Because they they first said that they are going to do something, but the policy was with the anti Semitism. Of course they killed it.

Speaker1: What about Zionism in Palestine? Has has your attitude about that changed over the years?

Speaker2: Well, I figured that it's the state is very, very important because the Jews that survived, there are 750,000 Jews that came from concentration camps to live in Israel and the Jews from the Arab countries. A million came to Israel. And without Israel, you could never have a the Jews would not survive. And you can never tell what's going to happen in Argentina and in Brazil. And maybe the Jews from those countries will have to go there too. And we are not so sure what's going to happen in the United States.

Speaker1: Uh, how do you feel that the current system in Israel is consistent with your original conceptions for socialism?

Speaker2: I mean, the government is a socialist government. It's a coalition, but the majority is is from the Labor Zionists. And of course they have to make all kinds of compromises. They cannot just carry out their policies just on the like, for instance, on marriage and divorce. They are very much opposed to the Labor Zionists, but since they have to have the 11 votes from the religious group, they have to give in.

Speaker1: The present government in Israel is run by is the same group as the Labor Zionists. Oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker2: It's a communist, labor Zionist.

Speaker1: What's what's the name of the party over there?

Speaker2: It's called the Liberal Party. No.

Speaker1: But it's the same. It's your.

Speaker3: But it's.

Speaker2: It's composed of mapai, which means my spelling is elim. The, the workers of Israel and Mapam, which is a left a left Zionist organization also workers.

Speaker1: Okay. Uh, did you ever belong to an organization specifically for Russian Jews? Yeah. What was that?

Speaker2: That was the name of the organization. Was. The Friends of the Soviet Union.

Speaker1: That's what's called a shop.

Speaker2: It's not landsmanshaft at all. This was just friends of the Soviet Union.

Speaker1: That was for Russian Jews. And that was in what years?

Speaker2: In the 20s?

Speaker1: What did that do?

Speaker3: Should we help to colonize?

Speaker2: See, first the Jewish colonies started in the Crimea and we used to send them machinery. We used to collect by machinery and send them to the Jewish colonies in Crimea. You know what Crimea is? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker1: Okay. What about, um. Uh, you said you had belonged to a landsmanshaft, right? What is that?

Speaker2: That's the people that came from our town.

Speaker1: From your town? Yeah. And is that organization still around? What do they do?

Speaker2: We collect money and help people if they need from our landsmanshaft. We have a world organization in 40 branches all over the world, and we meet every ten years, and we elect an executive committee.

Speaker1: And you have a regular, uh, it's mostly a financial thing for.

Speaker2: I guess we just did our 70th. We celebration and I send them $25.

Speaker1: But there's only seven Jews over there now.

Speaker2: In the town proper is only seven Jews, but there is hundreds, maybe thousands of Jews that came from our town that are in 40 different countries.

Speaker1: Oh, so you all help each other?

Speaker2: We don't help each other. All of us help the Jews that live in Israel. A landslide that there is maybe 500 Jews that live in Israel that come from our town.

Speaker3: Oh, I see.

Speaker2: And if they need help, we help them.

Speaker1: This is very common. I assume within.

Speaker2: There was 2000 organizations like 2000 Landsmanshaftn in the United States.

Speaker1: In the 19 tens, the Jewish philanthropies became a federation. What changes occurred in this organization?

Speaker2: First, it was a very, very small organization. The budget was nothing. Now the budget is 7 million a year. They collect $7 million. The Jewish Federation.

Speaker1: Did this affect you in any way?

Speaker2: I mean, I'm contributing to them.

Speaker1: Individuals contribute to that, right?

Speaker2: Individuals contribute $7 million a year in Pittsburgh.

Speaker1: A 7,000,000in Pittsburgh.

Speaker2: Just in Pittsburgh, the Jewish community contributes just to the federation, $7 million a year.

Speaker1: In Pittsburgh. What do they do?

Speaker2: The Federation doesn't do anything. It's just they collect the $7 million and they assign their money. 50% goes to Israel and. This money goes to the Montefiore Hospital, to the Jewish home of the aged, to the Hebrew Institute, to the IX C and to the Hillel Academy, C to. And they also help nationally different organizations, cultural organizations.

Speaker3: Okay.

Speaker2: The Jewish and the Jewish Family and Children's Service in Pittsburgh.

Speaker1: What neighborhoods in Pittsburgh have you lived in?

Speaker2: I lived the first 43 years. We lived in Squirrel Hill and now I live on the third street, Dithridge, which is near the university.

Speaker1: That's in Oakland, right? Yeah.

Speaker2: Don't call it Oakland. It's the cultural center. When you call Oakland, it's. People don't like it in my apartment.

Speaker3: They don't know.

Speaker1: They call it the cultural center. Yeah.

Speaker2: Because it's right across from the Carnegie Mellon. You know, the Mellon Institute is across the street and the university is right a block.

Speaker1: And when why do people why people don't like the name Oakland?

Speaker2: Oakland is considered a black section of most of Oakland is black and and you know it's deteriorated and.

Speaker1: When did you move into that neighborhood?

Speaker2: 1964.

Speaker1: Years. Why did you move there?

Speaker2: Because I don't drive. And this is the cultural center. See the Syrian mosque? The Pittsburgh Symphony used to have the concert in the Syrian mosque. So it was just two blocks. See Carnegie, The Carnegie Music Hall and Carnegie Lecture Hall is a block. The Jewish Y was a block in all our activities. That's all we go to to those things. And the Foster Memorial Theatre, you know, concerts.

Speaker1: Do most of the people or most of the people in that house. Jewish? No.

Speaker2: I would say 50%.

Speaker1: Do you think most of them live there because of that reason?

Speaker2: No. Most of them are old. And it's the people that live there are mostly seniors. Uh.

Speaker1: Where are your parents buried?

Speaker2: My parents and the Beit Shalom Cemetery.

Speaker1: You've never belonged to a burial association. What about, uh, a family club?

Speaker2: We don't have a club, but we are very close with the families. My wife said. I said.

Speaker1: Could you tell me something about these family clubs? I don't. I don't know much about.

Speaker3: Them people.

Speaker2: That, uh, it's. It's called also Cousins Club. See, let's say in the Jewish families, it was very common that there were 6 or 8 children. They are all married, They have children, they have grandchildren. So in a family there could be easily 50 or 60 people. And they come together once a month and they just like a landsmanshaft and they help each other and they are interested what's happening to them. And and they go to their weddings and. Well, how.

Speaker1: Is it different from just a a family?

Speaker2: You see, they they meet together but it's officially see they pay even use.

Speaker1: They do pay.

Speaker2: Dues dues and they have money. And in case if something has to be given, they take out the money and they and they help the the person a lot of family clubs in.

Speaker1: So they do it. They have a it's a regular time every month that they would meet. Sure. And the people from out that live out of town, do they come in for this?

Speaker3: They come in, too. Sure.

Speaker1: Really? And there's a lot of these things.

Speaker2: Not a lot. But there are. You see, if there is a big family, you see if like, for instance, if all the family is, let's say, in western Pennsylvania and there were eight children and now they're all married and now they have the grandchildren. So you see, so for them, it's good to organize. But if it's only two people or there was like, for instance, in my family, only three of four of us were married and four of us were never married. And there is only 1 to 4 people or eight children and we have only four nephews and nieces. So you see? You see so.

Speaker1: Um, is the main function of these family clubs, social or, or, or social mutual benefit. Social. Social. Okay. Um, is there anything else that, um, that you haven't mentioned or talked about that you, you wanted to talk about?

Speaker2: I mean.

Speaker1: Any of your organizational.

Speaker2: I mean, it's. It'll be an hour and a half, so I think it's enough for one. Okay.