Vravel, Steve, May 28, 1976, tape 1, side 2

Interviewer: Both the mill and the town has changed a lot. How has the town changed? How is it different from it was, say, when you were a kid?

Vravel: When I was a kid, you could work all you wanted. Now all work is limited. There's no laying around down there. One time when you went down there, if you had a breakdown for three, 4 or 5 hours, you stayed there, you loafed till they fixed the job and you wouldn't go home till the whistle. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: Now, when it breaks down, everybody goes home. They only keep the maintenance man and they keep it going.

Interviewer: Yeah. So then that means they don't have to pay people for sitting around.

Vravel: They'll dock you five minutes if you got five minutes before the whistle, now.

Speaker3: In them days, when my dad worked, they didn't have machinery. Everything was done by back, then. Interviewer: Yeah. That's the way they were.

Vravel: I remember the time department--

Speaker3: Before the machinery work, had machinery now--

Vravel: Each mill had a timekeeper. He'd go around hollering, you know, who's there? And you holler. Now everything's-- When they hand you a card-- You show your ID card, you get a, time card and your foreman fills it out. If you work seven hours and a half, he punches the hours in the minutes. Interviewer: Huh? Vravel: Then when you're going out, the security man, he punches you out. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: That's official.

Speaker3: Them days, there was 12 hours a day working. Not eight hours. Interviewer: Yeah. Speaker3: My dad worked 12 hours a day.

Interviewer: Well, even when you started, what was the workday like then when you started, in 1928?

Vravel: Well, they they didn't have a security system as they do now. Our ambulance calls had no radios. Now if you get in a car, everything is on radio. You could speak to each other. They have monitors in the offices. If I talk to you, they could hear me. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: Of course, when you were in a car, you had a car number. And that's the man who will answer the call. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: If I call you, I says K-G-3, call, call three. And every car it's on that wavelength would of-- would stay off when it just said-- You'd say, this is ten three. Go ahead. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: And we'd give the message and you'd say-- When I got your message, I said ten four over and out. I acknowledged the same way.

Interviewer: What-- was one of the things you had to do when you were on security, go around like, say, if fellows got hurt in accidents or something like that.

Vravel: Yep. Investigated thefts. Now the safety department investigates accidents.

Interviewer: When did all the safety stuff come in? Can you remember? I mean, like when--.

Vravel: Well, wehn when Dr. McCormick came there. He took a, walk through the mills and all them shafts. You know what a shaft is? Interviewer: I'm not sure. Vravel: The wheel with gears on it. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Vravel: None of 'em had shields on 'em. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: If you were doing a job, then he put no locks on the switches. If you get caught now on a job and the switch is on and no lock on then you go home, that's it. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: In other words, they didn't want you to do nothing when everything is in motion. If you're going to do any repair work, you pull the switch and you put the lock on it. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: Then you know you're safe. Interviewer: Yeah.

Interviewer: But a lot of people used to get hurt in the old days.

Vravel: One time we didn't walk undera [inaudible]. You were-- You were a coward. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: If you walk underneath an ingot now or a lift, why, you're gone. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: It-- I know when I used to drive a car. We used to get five six, seven, eight eye cases, dirt in eye. And when they enforce that-- goggles stuff. Interviewer: Yeah Vravel: That dropped way down.

Interviewer: So it did make a difference then.

Vravel: Oh, now she made a lot of difference. Then they come out with metatarsal shoes. You see these bones in your feet? Their metatarsal bones. And they give that cover. Yeah, that name after that. So. In the mill now, if you work, say, under a crane, you ain't even allowed to put your hand on the lift. They use hooks. Now they have signs. We can replace hooks, but we can't replace hands. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: And when they were building the mills, it was nothing for a man each week to get killed. I remember when they were building a structural mill. Say who-- You hear who got killed? Yeah. Blah. So and so. There's nothing new to get killed in the middle one time. Then that safety start creeping in. Now you ain't even allowed to feed a pigeon on the street in a mill. You ain't allowed to throw a paper bag. In the can-- You got to put it in a can and close it. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: Everything's sanitary now.

Interviewer: Did the union have anything to do with that kind of stuff or?

Vravel: Well. Union proposes certain things, but the company has the final say so. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: It was cheaper and better for the company to have a safety.

Interviewer: Yeah I suppose. Yeah.

Vravel: And having some-- I've seen guys that take chances down there trying to chain up the lift and get hurt and be off for 2 or 3 years and run a company in a three, 4 or 5, 50, not 50,000, but $500,000 worth of medical expense. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: I used to take one kid from Homestead Medical Center to Shady Side Presbyterian for grafting and all that. If he had to pay that we figure it out one day, it would run in the hundreds of thousands and nothing but the best surgeons.

Interviewer: Somebody that was hurt in the mill. Vravel: Yeah. Interviewer: Burned or something.

Vravel: And we used to have a West Penn Hospital. When somebody got hurt, it was the police. They called them police. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: We put them in the ambulance and they had to have a driver and a man attending the patient. We used to strap them down sometime if they got out of order. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: And if it's a severe case, the doctor rode with us. Interviewer: Mhm. Vravel: Because he needed equipment to work on, but, we didn't have it. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: So we still use West Penn Hospital. They used to have a ward there called the US Steel Ward.

Interviewer: That was for all the people that got hurt, at uh--.

Vravel: The whole area, in the valley. All steelworkers.

Interviewer: What was the depression like in this area? Can you remember?

Vravel: Well. They didn't send out gas bills, electric bills and water bills then. Most of the cooking was done on a coal stove. Most of the lighting was done by gas. You had gas lights in the house. Nobody had telephones in the house. They'd send you one notice when you were a delinquent on your bill. They wouldn't come bother you. They'd just put a-- ladder up against your house and cut the wires off. When they'd leave, they had the-- neighborhood would go and put it right back.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Vravel: And in those days, during the Hoover days. They-- things are-- And then the most of the people were shamed and get welfare then. They didn't have welfare systems like they do now, but they gave out food once in a while. Now, there's no one going to starve in this country now, no matter what he is or what he does. Interviewer: Yeah.

But people didn't like to take welfare, then, you don't think.

Vravel: Had too much pride. Depression starts setting in during Herbert Hoover's days. 28, 29, 30, and in the late 31s, Roosevelt was elected and he took office in January 1932. First thing he done was he froze all the money in the banks. Then, one good thing he's done here, he mocked up prohibition. We all want to know what a bottle of beer looks like. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Vravel: My first bottle was a silver top.

Interviewer: You remember your first bottle of beer? Vravel: Yeah. Interviewer: Huh.

Vravel: You know how kids are. They-- they want to see what it tastes like. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: They figure you're a man when you can take a shooter back and a beer, then. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: There's no place to loaf. They had no-- no radios and no TVs then. Also, the district had about five theaters. And when you went into one of them, you had to wait for an usher to find you a seat. Interviewer: Yeah.

Yeah. So a lot of people went to the theater then for movies and stuff?

Vravel: They had nothin' else to do.

Interviewer: One of the few things to do.

Vravel: Dancing and the theaters. Interviewer: Yeah. Where'd

you dance?

Vravel: I never danced. I played music.

Interviewer: Now, you were in one of the bands then that went to these places?

Vravel: No, we had our own orchestras, but I never danced in my life. My wife used to go to dances, but I-- I-- I was a different kind of a man. I just enjoyed myself some other way. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Vravel: I played at weddings and dances, but never cared to dance. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: They had marathon dances in, where you danced. The reason they had marathon dance is the young girls and boys had nothing to do. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: They danced for a week or 2 or 3 weeks. Interviewer: Yeah.

Well, how did people get by during the Depression if they didn't take welfare and they were out of work?

Vravel: Well, most of the people from Europe, they'd done all their baking at home. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: And they made the eats. You'd see some in pots it looked like in the army. Now you get a can get-- Everything's instant now. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: You don't want to electric can opener or you put the gas on. You turn it, it comes on. You want to go to bathroom or get the warm water, you just push the button. It's all there. Yeah.

Interviewer: Well, you remember it as being different than that?

Vravel: Oh, yeah. That [inaudible] your life now, because I remember how it was. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: They're still living that way in Europe. When my dad took us there for a couple of years, I couldn't live how I was now when it was for nothing.

Interviewer: So you were glad to go back to the US then, when you left.

Vravel: Well, I was too young and dumb to know what it's all about yet. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: But my dad, he didn't see his father for 26 years. He was getting old and lonely. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: He said, no matter what it cost me, he took the five boys, his wife and himself. I remember when we got there, my dad, he cried like a kid. Didn't see his father for 26 years. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: While we were leaving, it was the same old story. Just like going to a funeral. You'll never see him again.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Vravel: -- Same way on a boat. Took us nine days across the Atlantic. I-- I never smelled ocean water for, all them years. But if you took me near an ocean, I could smell the water. You kidnapped me and blindfolded me, took me on a on a boat on the ocean. I said we're on the ocean. Interviewer: Yeah.

Can you remember people like families helping each other during the Depression?

Vravel: That's how they got along.

Interviewer: What kind of things?

Vravel: Well. Say your father or mother was an invalid. They didn't know what an old age home was in those days. Or send them away. Get rid of them. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: They took care of them. Was the families more tied together then. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: If somebody needed help, he got it. The-- members of the family have been lending you money to buy something or, put a down payment on a mortgage and all that. Now everything's legal. You want to get a loan on the house now, they investigate you from A to Z. If you don't have one third, you're done. Say you want to buy a home for 15,000. If you don't have 5000 cash, just forget about it. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Vravel: In those days, why, you didn't need one third down.

Interviewer: And like a brother would help another brother get a home or something. Vravel: Yeah, and

Vravel: well in a family there's always feuds, but there's certain ones that stick together. Interviewer: Yeah.

Well, what about one family helping another family, though. Like during the Depression? Say if the father is out of work or something like that. Did that ever happen?

Vravel: They were helping each other. Yeah. If some--

Say you--. Speaker3: They used to carry boxes and they gave that powdered milk and dried beans. Nothing worthwhile eating. They could put it up in a wagon--.

Vravel: I know when my mother was sick, she had friends that come over and bring her stuff to eat.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Vravel: You don't have that now.

Speaker3: They put your own cabbage up with a garden. Work was the biggest thing in their life. They spend all their time making this gardens. Interviewer: Yeah. Speaker3: And live on that.

Vravel: They knew how to stretch a dollar, in other words. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: Yeah. They know how to stretch a dollar. Speaker3: When I got married.

I could have got--. Vravel: This is what

you call a metatarsal shoe. Interviewer: Huh? Vravel: That could absorb half a ton if you drop one on it.

Interviewer: I see what you mean.

Vravel: You know, I seen them tryna to put the shoe on like they use in the garden in France. Put your shoe there. Of course, your foot wouldn't be in there, that drop all the way down there. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: They'd measure the impact. And that's a must now. You ain't not in the mill with out 'em. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: You ain't allowed to work with out of them.

Interviewer: I've seen steel toed shoes, but I never saw that kind before.

Vravel: These are metatarsal. I put mine on the garbage can one day. I didn't want to throw it in the garbage can. I put it on the can, and this colored guy picks our garbage. He just grabs a look at 'em. Put it on the front seat. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.

What about this town? How is that this-- this town of Homestead? How has that changed? Vravel: Well--

Speaker3: No city man, streets all dirt.

Interviewer: At that time you mean Vravel: We

had no postal service.

Speaker3: We had mud. When spring time came, you had muddy kitchen. You could have scrubbed it with a broom.

Vravel: Well, I'll tell you how it was in those days. If it snowed in November, that snowed later till springtime. They didn't have ash crews Speaker3: And I lied on my

Speaker3: Back side side of mine-- Vravel: They didn't

have ash crews and everybody

hollering.

Vravel: You know, people hollering about salt the streets. They didn't have that then. That's why you had-- We get cold weather now, but--

Speaker3: When we got snow they didn't have these plows. But like he says, when it starts snowing, you had until you got warm. It stayed-- It's more on top. But we had the days sliding and sled riding. Interviewer: Yeah. Speaker3: And most of these, like Schwab Street down here, was all uphills and downhills till date. And all this was all empty.

Speaker3: All this had--. Vravel: This town of Whittaker has a little cemetery right in the center there. And Aaron Whittaker. This was his farm. And that's where--. Interviewer: This whole town. Vravel: Yeah. That's where they got the name Whittaker. Interviewer: Yeah. Speaker3: They still have

that piece of ground where people from 17 or 15-- Vravel: Years

ago, like, say, in-- Interviewer: 1700s. Vravel: 1700s, they didn't have cemeteries. You buried people in your own lot. Interviewer: Yeah.

Yeah.

Vravel: You take them rich dudes that-- They, uh-- They won't put 'em in a cemetery. They'll put 'em in their own place. Interviewer: Yeah.

Can you remember of neighborhoods being like, say, all one nationality, like one neighborhood in Homestead being Polish? Vravel: You ever hear the--

Vravel: like seeks like. Interviewer: Yeah.

Yeah.

Vravel: Well, I'll give you an idea. Hazelwood, they had scotch bottom. In Amstead they had Slavonic people. Polish people. And stuff like that. They seemed-- they go-- they went where their churches and schools were. They lived in that area. In fact, you take all of your nationality, churches. They built it themselves. The people contributed it. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: And they build it. And there's a difference in the church There's a sectional church where it's open for everybody. As long as you're of that religion. Like, say Catholic, Protestant or Jew. Interviewer: Yeah Vravel: I can go to this church here and move to Mexico and come back and I'll still be a member here. Interviewer: Yeah.

This is an ethnic church.

Vravel: This is a our area church. Just like Saint Michael's church in Homestead was built by the Slavs. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: And I know people went to Europe, moved out of town, then became old and died. He brought 'em back and buried them out of that church. No objection because they're on the books.

Interviewer: You said that your mom and dad took you back to-- to Europe to live for a couple of years. Was that pretty common for people to go back and forth, like, maybe get a little money? Vravel: No.

They didn't have no money. The reason my dad, what prompted him to go is, he didn't see his father for 26 years and he got that lonely feeling. He sold the house and everything. He got passports for the kids and all that said, away we're going. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: But those days they didn't have money like they have now. Now, you-- you can get an airplane now, go to New York. You're in Europe in two, three, four hours. Interviewer: Yeah.

It was pretty hard for people to go back then.

Vravel: They didn't have no money. Interviewer: Yeah.

Speaker3: I remember, in them days you could have went on twelve dollars to Europe. Interviewer: Oh that's probably right. Yeah. Speaker3: And they went maybe for 2 or 3 months before-- If you wanted

Vravel: to go to Europe now, they charge you $15 from Pittsburgh to the airport. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Vravel: And the taxi or whatever conveyance they have there. In those days, there was no-- no time for people getting in trouble. Everybody's working six, seven days a week and overtime. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: In other words, they didn't know any better. Then finally, like in US Steel, when a union organized, they fought for six day a week. As they're renewing contracts down through the years and they went for 40 hours a week. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: Now everything over 40 hours now, is time and a half and a seven day is double time. On holidays-- Those days, you got paid straight time. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: Now if you're working on a holiday-- If you're working at double time and a quarter. And if you're off, you get paid anyway. It was all done through the union. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: Unions are a very important thing for the working man. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: No matter where you belong now, you wouldn't have a union behind you if you're independent, why-- They just-- They just don't mix in with them, that's all.

Interviewer: And people probably felt pretty strongly about it then, that everyone should should join.

Vravel: One time he mentioned union, you got fired.

Interviewer: Can you remember that?

Vravel: Yeah. Before they had the union. You get down you now, like, I've got this boss. He said, Hey, I'm a busy man. I'll talk to you. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: You better arrange for an appointment there, buddy. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: I got a complaint. You ain't treat my men right. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: I'll call that foreman in on the carpet and raise all kinds of Haiti with him. Interviewer: Yeah.

Because the union's pretty strong now.

Vravel: Oh. Company couldn't operate without a union. The union could tie them up in one minute. In other words, they must cooperate to get along. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: The company needs workers and the workers need to work. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: So that's the way it breaks down.

Interviewer: But now I guess it's right in the contract that they don't strike anymore or anything.

Vravel: This contract we have now is a no strike clause. It's experiment only. And it worked out all right. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: It worked out all right. Because the other corporations and factories and mills, they're following that pattern. Yeah, they're following that pattern now.

Interviewer: You don't think it hurt to have the no strike clause? Vravel: No.

You know how I know it? CIO President Abel said it doesn't. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Vravel: And he knows all about labor. Interviewer: Yeah.

So before you went on the-- well, maybe even after when you-- when you became a security officer then at the mill, were you in the union at that time or wasn't the union--?

Vravel: There was no union until the late 30s.

Interviewer: But did you say-- didn't you say you didn't become a security man until 41? Vravel: 41. Interviewer: And before then you were actually working in a mill?

Vravel: They must have been organized in the early 40s. Because they a picnic table in front of the gate and they were grabbing guys sign them up and I was-- I had a uniform on. It must have been after 41.

Interviewer: Maybe new people coming into the mill for war work or something like that.

Vravel: The way they have it now-- Say you were employed in US Steel. They hand you a union card. If you don't sign it, I don't think they'll call you in there. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: And they have a dues deduction. Interviewer: Check off. Vravel: Check off. That's what this card is for. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: If you want to belong or not, you're a member. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: When you get your paycheck, it says only union dues. Interviewer: Yeah.

It's a closed shop. Vravel: Yeah, it's

like Social Security. Same way. You can't tell me you don't want it. You'll take it anyway.

Interviewer: Yeah, that's right.

Vravel: That's a good thing for the politicians. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: They're going to work on that Social Security until they start a new system. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: 10, 20 years from now, you know how much the young kids will be getting from Social Security they pay into it. They'll be getting a thousand a week to loaf. In other words, it's going to creep in on-- a like now we have a-- Federal Pension Security. In other words, if US Steel went bankrupt tomorrow I'll have to get my pension check from the government. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Vravel: I'm protected. I got a check yesterday. I'm making more money being off than working.

Interviewer: That's a good deal. Vravel: Yeah. Interviewer: I think so. Yeah.

Vravel: Well, from 1938 till 1951, I checked it off on the-- You know how much money I put in the Social Security? $320 in them years. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: 1951 it would've started growing up. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: Then, it started going up. Just like now. [Inaudible] and I are 62 when we started getting Social Security. Everything they took out of my paycheck come out to $6,200 for Social Security. In the last two years, I got 6000 back already. And I'll be-- I'll be riding it through, though.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Vravel: That's same with the pensions. I'll show you what a pension check looks like. [Crumpling paper] [Inaudible]. This I received through the mail yesterday. That's a pension check. Do you know anybody can get one like that for loafing?

Interviewer: Not bad. No. This is for a month. Vravel: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah.

Vravel: And he took out $20 income tax.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Vravel: That's for loafin. There's nothing wrong with working in the Homestead steelworks.

Interviewer: Yeah, well, that's another change then

Interviewer: Because uhh-- Vravel: Each contract improved for the working man. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: Each contract improves. And the next one they're going to-- What they have in there now is, if you have 30 years in there, regardless of age, you can leave. 30 years and you can leave when you want to. Now they want for 20 or 25. They want a 20 year pension. What'll happen there? They'll probably settle for 25 when it's all over. Not to shut it down. That's how they do it. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: The people are educated now. They're hard to handle. There's no-- no more dummies.

Interviewer: So one difference maybe between now and the old days is that people didn't realize what they could do before, but now-- Vravel: No.

I know a man who worked in the Homestead Steelworks, was called Carnegie Illinois. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: He put 51 years and he had a $28 a month pension.

Interviewer: Yeah, pretty bad.

Vravel: Now for each your service starts at the first year is-- first 15 years is $12. Next 15 years is $13. And everything over 13 years is $14 for each year of service, and no limit. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: One time whenever you worked in the mill, they paid $2 for each year of service. And when you're 35 years service, you quit. And quit. Now, if they quit on me when I had 35 years, I'd have been losing all that time from from 35 to 46 years service. Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: I'd be losing close to a couple hundred dollars right there. Union is a great thing. If we didn't have organized labor, Why-- You'd go back 100 years ago. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Vravel: That's my opinion. I don't know how someone else feels about it.

Interviewer: Well, was it hard for the union to get in here, do you think? I mean, like you said, now the company realizes that they have to have the union and they've got to work--.

Vravel: You mentioned joining union one time you were on a list. You're undesirable for the corporation.

Interviewer: Did you know guys that that happened to.

Vravel: Yeah, I worked with them.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Vravel: They used to whisper. We're going to have a drive and this and that. If you had a car, they were afraid to carry the work. They might leave it in the locker and the boss would, finally, he's a union man. Interviewer: Yeah.

What seemed to like break this open? I mean, the guys seem so afraid, and then after a while, they were able to just come out in the open and--. Vravel: More education.

Vravel: More education is what does it.

Interviewer: What about when Roosevelt came in? Did that make any difference when the government changed?

Vravel: That's when it start changing. He was in Homestead Steelworks.

Interviewer: He came here?

Vravel: Yeah. And all the men in gentle labor. They all had white overalls on and white gloves. You got caught throwing a match on the street you got sent home? Interviewer: Yeah. Vravel: They're all hard. Hi, Rosie. Hi, Rosie. They didn't have them mills built from. They call it [Inaudible]. Interviewer: Yeah. Down in Homestead district at, the government.