O'Connor, Catherine, May 19, 1976, tape 1, side 2

Barrett: You say [inaudible] O'Connor: Well, I was just telling you that the length of time. Barrett: Right. O'Connor: And I was oh, I was so happy in that job. We had we had a suite of offices and we were off by ourselves. Nobody to bother us. In one. We. I took a week's

Vacation at Christmas time, and I went to New York for a week. And I could

O'Connor: See I'd had it. I had had an eye examination in October.

And I talked to Dr. Udo and he told me I had

O'Connor: 20 over 20 vision with glasses. And I, usually lunch with Betty Mealey, a friend of mine. And I said, I'm going to buy your lunch today. I just had an eye examination. I have 20 over 20 vision with glasses.

I'm going to buy you lunch. She said, okay, so we went to [inaudible]. And that was--

O'Connor: in October. And I went to New York, for that week. I went back to [inaudible][??].

And my brother and my niece's husband took me to the plane to come home. And when I got off the plane, I couldn't see.

Barrett: Did they ever-- were they ever-- ever able to figure out what happened? O'Connor: Well,

O'Connor: Yes. The blood vessels behind the retinas had hemorrhaged while I was on the plane. And there's nothing-- you can't do anything about blood vessels. Barrett: Yeah O'Connor: But you look at me, you wouldn't know I was--

Barrett: Yeah, I didn't realize at first--

O'Connor: Because it's the eye, the redness, the blood vessels. So I went

O'Connor: into the hospital for three weeks. They couldn't do anything for me and then the [inaudible] picked me up. You know, gave me the-- benefits. Barrett: Yes. O'Connor: I don't get blind pensions because I have too much income. Barrett: Yes.

Barrett: But you're living in the house now where you grew up early? Is that right? O'Connor: Yes. Barrett: Your family's home?

O'Connor: No. The first home was on Ann or Anne[??] Street in Homestead. We bought this house in, 1929, just about three months before the crash. And if we had waited-- if my mother and father had waited another six months-- we paid $8,100 for this house, they could have gotten it for 5000. Barrett: Yeah. Yeah. O'Connor: And my mother and father had-- they had about $6,000

approximately to put down on the house. And then the-- along came the Depression. And then they had

O'Connor: that homeowner's loan.

Barrett: Did you ever hear? Barrett: Yes, I know what you mean. Part of the New Deal.

O'Connor: And my mother never missed a trip. So she went and applied for that to pay the other-- the balance.

And they gave it to her. And she-- they paid my mother and father paid $52 a month to homeowner's loan. And they came into this house. It was a-- a contractor, and it was--

O'Connor: This house was all renovated without any cost to us. Through the homeowner's loan. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: They put a new roof on. And they did all kinds of other work in the house. [Coughs]

O'Connor: Through the homeowner's loan. Barrett: How did your mom and dad feel about Roosevelt, or how did you feel, for that matter? Uh, this is-- this is something which he is responsible for, to some extent. Well, I thought

O'Connor: that was the best thing that he ever did. But do you know, that we had friends-- and we thought they were pretty well to do-- That did not make their monthly payments. They thought, oh, the government will never take our house. But the government did take their house. It was two very close-- Three close families of ours lost their house. There was Culverts and Platitudes[??] and I think McWilliams, and they just were careless. Every month I went to Mellon Bank in downtown Pittsburgh, paid that-- took the book with me-- paid that $52.

Barrett: How did your mom and dad handle the [uhm] the family budget when your dad was out of work? Did-- did all of your kids just put the money together into one--?

O'Connor: My mother. My mother took all our money. But we got, you know, we always got plenty back, you know, and we always were very well dressed. But she took the money, until my brothers got married. And the last two months before they would get married, she would let them keep that money. Yeah, she would let them keep their full pay. Barrett: So that

Barrett: they'd have a start when they got married.

Had plenty of money. Yeah. O'Connor: And then, of course. Oh, I guess she did other things to help.

Barrett: Did either of your parents ever get interested in politics after the United States?

O'Connor: My brother Pat, the one who was the justice of the peace.

O'Connor: He's the only one that did. Barrett: And was that regular Democratic-- O'Connor: Yes. Barrett: Party politics? O'Connor: Yeah. Barrett: And did your-- [stammering] is that your family's politics? I mean, generally--? O'Connor: Yes. Barrett: Regular Democrat--. O'Connor: Yeah.

O'Connor: My-- Now, I'll tell you about my other brothers. You want me to tell? Barrett: Yes, I

Barrett: would.

O'Connor: My brother Pat. My brother James went with Lloyd's of London. Then, my brother Pat was the real estate insurance. He had his own real

estate insurance business, and was justice of the peace for Bradock.

O'Connor: He got that on both tickets, both Republican and Democrat. He's very popular man. And he did a lot of the

work for these

O'Connor: men that, you know, they were just-- they had no homes. And the-- Federal government that was giving them welfare-- They would say, give that to him. They would make the check out to him, and he would make sure that wherever they had rooms, that the rent was paid, that they were clothed and that-- and then he would deposit so much in these little restaurants, and these men could go in there and get--. See, they were they were drinking their money. Barrett: Yeah. Yeah. O'Connor: And the federal government-- government asked him if he would do that, take that responsibility.

Barrett: He administered the funds for the funds--.

O'Connor: So you know how well thought of he was.

Barrett: Yeah. Yeah. Because these fellows felt that he was kind of taking care of them.

O'Connor: Yes, because they were being taken by, you know-- You know, some women will latch on to them and take their, you know, their money and so forth. So they-- then he would give them a little bit of change every day, so they'd have jingling money in their pockets. Barrett: Yeah.

O'Connor: So that's what he did. Then my-- I told you about my sister-- my two sisters and about myself and my next

O'Connor: brother, John. He was the only one went into the mill to work. And they said he was just as good as my father had been over in Scotland. He was a real expert and they would call him from all different parts of the mill. Other men told me this-- he didn't tell me-- to come to straighten something out. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: And they had slabs that were numbered and they would look and look and look maybe for a whole day or something, and no one could find it. Then, they'd sent for him to his mill and his. This man by the name of Graham-- he was a superintendent down there-- He said, Scotty, you have eyes in your ass. That was-- Barrett: You could find things. O'Connor: You could find at least, you know, different slabs that they needed.

Barrett: What was his job in the mill? Do you know? Was he a roller?

O'Connor: Well, I guess he was something like a roller.

Barrett: Yeah, some kind of skill job. O'Connor: Yes. Barrett: Yeah. And did he work at that all his life? O'Connor: Yes.

O'Connor: He worked at it all-- all of his life, until-- periodically, he would get kidney stones. And he was always in and out of the hospital with his kidney stones. He suffered terribly. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: Then finally, they. They took the one kidney out. Barrett: Yes. O'Connor: And, then, he was a great smoker. And he would smoke and smoke and he got cancer of

The tongue. He had to have his tongue removed, and his jaw or job[??]. Well, then, they put him on disability pension.

Barrett: And when was that? I'm trying to figure out when he worked in the mill.

Well, he worked in the mill from-- Well he died in 1929. And he worked for the mill from the time he was still in High School.

Barrett: When your dad worked in the mill in Scotland. I'm wondering how much of a change it was for him to come here and to--.

O'Connor: It was a great let down. Because we-- we had the-- we had the-- the finest house in Scotland. It was-- and we had the town clock in our home. You know, he was the big man. Barrett: Yeah.

Barrett: Because he was superintendent of the mill.

O'Connor: Yes. Yeah, it's a it's a very small mill, but Mr. Kennedy owned it. And then my father-- Then we would go to the-- A place called Saltcoats-- it was on the seashore. We go there in the summertime, weekends. And then my father was a great gambler. He and Mr. Canby, you know, they were, you know, on an equal basis. And Mr. Canby and he would go to Scotland, and they would, you know, play the horses and, you know, do do the wrong thing or own thing[??]. And at my Aunt Mary- she had never married and she lived with us--

And Mary McCann was my mother's maiden name. And my mother and she

O'Connor: would take all of us to Scotland. We had owned a place in Scotland by the seashore. I mean, in Saltcoats. It was right on the on the seashore. And we would go there all summer or we would, go weekends, and my father would go to Glasgow.

Barrett: So it must have been a terrible disappointment to your dad to come here

and--. O'Connor: It was. He was-- he didn't work for about maybe eighteen years before he died.

Barrett: At the time that your dad was working in the mill, a lot of the other men that were doing similar work were Slavic immigrants like Polish and Slovak. O'Connor: Yes. Barrett: Was your part of town-- you know, where you lived in Homestead at that time, what was the neighborhood like?

Barrett: What kind of people did you live with? O'Connor: Well, for instance, the the mayor of Homestead lived next door to us. So it was a double house and it was, you know. There was a basement kitchen, and then there was-- That's where the

cooking was on. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: And then there were the living room and dining room upstairs. And they had a dumbwaiter or something like that. And then they had-- We had

O'Connor: bedrooms about 3 or 4 bedrooms, you know, on the second floor. And then there was the attic. It was almost four stories.

Barrett: That sounds like--.

O'Connor: It's been torn

O'Connor: down and demolished. Barrett: Was it an old frame house?

O'Connor: Yes, it was a frame house.

And there was a little narrow porch in the front. And then there was a back porch.

Barrett: So this is not the kind of neighborhood where, like, let's say, a

Polish laborer in the mill would be living. O'Connor: No, they weren't. They were mostly--. Barrett: Along the tracks.

O'Connor: They lived down below the tracks.

Barrett: And this was, you said, on Anne Street.

O'Connor: On Anne Street in Homestead. And it's-- You know where Savior Imago's Church is? Barrett: Yes. O'Connor: Well, it was-- We faced the park. You know that Frick Park? Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: Well, it was

O'Connor: in that neighborhood. Barrett: So, that's pretty nice. O'Connor: Yes. Barrett: And what what what kind of people lived there? What did your neighbors do? You mentioned one was-- one

was the mayor of the town. O'Connor: Well, he was mayor of the town, and then there was a--

O'Connor: Mr. Caldwell. He was a schoolteacher. He had about three children. And his daughter Florence and I were good friends. What did he do to you?

Barrett: No, I'm fine. I'm just finishing, thanks.

O'Connor: That sort of, you know--.

Mostly, they were in real estate and they were here--

O'Connor: Well, they weren't really mill workers that lived around us.

Barrett: How did how did your mom and dad manage to make the ends meet then, with just everybody working together like that? O'Connor: Yes.

Barrett: All the kids and everything. O'Connor: We were never-- We never-- We were never poor, you know, you might say. Barrett: Yeah O'Connor: We were never destitute. My mother was the manager.

Barrett: Yeah, that sounds kind of common, that it was-- it was the mom that had to kind of run the house. So that means that she took care of the budget, family budget.

O'Connor: She took all the money and then she distributed it.

Barrett: Yeah. And always managed to make it work somehow. O'Connor: That's right. Barrett: I'm realizing that there were a couple of things I forgot to ask you, and it's making me lose track. What year were you born in? O'Connor: Oh.

O'Connor: No, I'm not going to tell you.

Barrett: Okay, how about-- How about a rough-- Were you a little girl when they came in 1913 to the US--? O'Connor: Yes. Barrett: --Okay.

O'Connor: You can figure that out.

Barrett: That's good enough then. Yeah, that's fine. So then you really-- you had-- you traveled a little bit while you were working, but mostly you grew up and spent your life in Homestead. O'Connor: Yes.

O'Connor: And then in 19

29, we bought this house. We paid $8,100 for it. My mother had--

O'Connor: I always say my mother because she had all my money, but they had, you know, over $5,000 and put it down on the house, too. So the mortgage would be,

O'Connor: so high. Barrett: And everyone was still at home here with you at that time. O'Connor: Well, they were leaving.

O'Connor: They were leaving, and we weren't in here too long. So there was really no one here but my brother John and I. You know, that's when they started to get married. They all got married close together. Barrett: Yeah.

Barrett: Something happened to my family. Everybody got married at one time--.

O'Connor: The reason they bought the house was so we'd have room. You know, lots of room. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: See, we have two beautiful rooms up on the third floor here and-- And a complete apartment on

the second floor-- Furnished apartment-- and then this place. So we had

O'Connor: lots and lots because those rooms were bedrooms.

Barrett: And what-- what did you-- what did your your life revolve around while you lived in Homestead? I mean, how, for example, how important was the church and what kind of other organizations did you belong to? O'Connor: Well.

O'Connor: The church was very important. You know, we'd go to benediction at night, you know.

Like on a Friday night, and go to benediction on Sunday night and, you know, maybe walk around with

O'Connor: boys or, you know, just have dates.

Barrett: It was a way to socialize as

well as--. O'Connor: We would go to Kennywood. You know, Kennywood was not a rough spot then. A nice place to go.

Barrett: What did they have there? What would you do when you went up? O'Connor: Kennywood? Barrett: Yeah. I mean, did-- O'Connor: They had those Ferris wheels.

O'Connor: They didn't have these, you know, dangerous things. Just the merry go round, Ferris wheels, the, the, the rowboats. You know, we go out

O'Connor: on the lake. Barrett: Somebody told me that at one time they had dancing. O'Connor: And

then they had a dance hall and-- Oh, that was wonderful.

Barrett: So a lot, a lot of the young people would go up there.

O'Connor: Everybody went to Kennywood.

Barrett: Was that mixed up ethnically? I mean, like with people from all over the town-- all different nationalities.

O'Connor: Homestead, West Homestead and Munhall. There wasn't Homestead Park then. Homestead Park was not. Homestead Park was undermined. Coal mine, and Mr. Bainbridge who was the-- Was a real estate man. And he always-- he took a liking to my mother and to our family, and he was always very helpful. And he-- He knew my mother had this money before we bought this house. And he took her,

my father out to Homestead Park and-- Lots-- And our next door to

O'Connor: my sister for instance. There was a lot that sold the past number of years for $5,500. A lot. Those same lots, bare lots, you know, no, no housing or anything on it.

He wanted my mother to buy those lots for $50 a lot.

O'Connor: Yeah, we could have been millionaires.

Barrett: They've been worth a lot of money now. But they decided on getting this house--. O'Connor: And they just-- My mother got this house.

O'Connor: Then my brother [inaudible]-- My brother John was in the mill. Then my brother Dan, he's a podiatrist doctor. Barrett: Yeah.

And so it sounds like he went to school the longest of anybody then, did he?

O'Connor: Well. Well, they went to school,

night school. My brother Pat, he coached.

O'Connor: He was on Carnegie Tech. He went to, went to college there, you know. And he coached the soccer league over there. Carnegie Tech. That's the one that was in the real estate. Barrett: Yeah. Yeah.

O'Connor: And he took courses over there. My brother James, you know, he was

O'Connor: self-educated, you know, after he went to Saint Mungos. And then my brother Dan went to New York to take his-- to be a podiatrist.

He lived with my brother and his wife. First couple of

O'Connor: years. Barrett: How did education end up being so important in your family do you think? How did your mom and dad feel about that?

O'Connor: Because, I think because they were great readers. My mother would sit-- would read till three and four and five o'clock in the morning. And then and-- one thing that my mother had, she always had help.

Barrett: From the kids, you mean? O'Connor: No.

O'Connor: Somebody's coming in to help. Barrett: Oh, I see. O'Connor: To help with the abortion and the ironing and cleaning. We had all kinds of, you know, foreign little-- one foreign woman. She was, just like this. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: And her name was Sophie. And during World War[??] she had one son, and she-- My mother and she got along so well. No one could understand a word that woman said. She was lavish[??], but my mother could understand it. Barrett: Yeah O'Connor: And she used to make her own clothes for with, sacks, you know, flour sacks. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: And then she would have it tight around the middle and she was just moving[??] around, so. And here she only had one son. And the reason she-- My mother-- We could have got more glamorous person to come, I guess my mother-- But my mother felt sorry for her because she-- evidently this was an illegitimate boy she had. Barrett: Yes. O'Connor: And my mother would let Sophie bring him.

And he played with us and-- She just idolized my mother.

O'Connor: And here along came World War One and he was killed. You know, she disappeared. She must-- We, always thought she committed suicide because she never came back to our house.

Barrett: Yeah. You mean when he died, she just vanished.

O'Connor: When he died, you know, she just vanished. She had one big tooth. I still remember. She had hardly any teeth, but this one big tooth hanging down here and she, you know, she laughed.

Barrett: Do you know where she lived? Did she live--?

O'Connor: She lived down below the tracks.

I don't know where she lived, but just--.

Barrett: So then your mom did have some time for herself and she could do her reading and everything? O'Connor: Yes. Barrett: What kind of things did she readto you? Do you remember?

O'Connor: History. They loved history. They read all kinds of history there.

Barrett: Yeah. And your dad read quite a bit, too? O'Connor: Yes.

O'Connor: We were all great readers. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: No, I have these talking books I just finished reading, All the President's Men. Barrett: Yeah, yeah. O'Connor: Did you read that? Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: I couldn't lay that down. Yeah, I just finished it this morning.

Barrett: Yeah, I haven't actually read it yet, but I know about it because everyone's talking about it.

O'Connor: And I didn't think they'd have it on the talking book.

My sister and my niece. And they said, Oh, I wish you could read this, you know? So I called and sure enough, they had it. Yeah, I sent it out to.

Barrett: Your dad wasn't too tired after working in the mill all day to come home and sit down and read.

O'Connor: Oh no, and he belonged to a-- They belonged to a bowling out Schenley Park. You know those outdoor bowling? Barrett: Yes. Yes. O'Connor: And you see, he he had a lot of medals in Scotland for championship bowler. He was a champion bowler. So that was there. And then they belong to the AA-- AOH, and they go down

there and play cards. Barrett: Yeah, that's Ancient Order of Hibernians. Yeah. So that, that some of their social life revolved around that kind of thing.

O'Connor: My mother belonged to the LCD

Ladies Beneficial. So something like that. Catholic organization. And they would have parties and things.

Barrett: So it sounds like they're pretty active.

O'Connor: Yeah, they weren't-- And we were all very active. That time bridge became, bridge became very popular. And we used to have,

you know. We all belong to different groups of bridge players.

O'Connor: Whenever we were going to have the bridge club here, this house was torn apart. Barrett: Yeah. Yeah. O'Connor: You know, cleaned. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: And it was always cleaned. Yeah, but it was curtain-- You clean curtains and windows washed and all that.

Barrett: Were you and your brothers and sisters in any kind of organizations? What what kind of things did kids spend their time at?

O'Connor: Well, my sister, my two s-- I wasn't a joiner because most of my friends were in downtown Pittsburgh, where my sister worked in the Monongahela Bank here. And my other sister worked for Hugh[??] O'Donnell and his three drugstores. And they were involved with, people, you know, that worked around Homestead and so forth, and they had these bridge clubs. But most of my friends were from Pittsburgh and I would go to Pittsburgh most of the time. We'd go to the theater.

You know, the Nixon Theater. Barrett: Yeah. Yeah. O'Connor: And our Saturday,

O'Connor: I would leave here, meet these girls for lunch, and we'd have lunch and we'd go-- A couple of times we went to the Gypsy tea room and then we'd go someplace else for a good lunch.

And then we'd go to maybe a movie. Or, the theatre.

O'Connor: And then we'd have our dinner, and then we'd go someplace else.

Barrett: Sounds like you had a full day? O'Connor: Yes.

Barrett: And those were mostly friends from work then? O'Connor: Those are friends that I met downtown.

Barrett: But you still spent-- I mean, is this, is this when you're when you're older and you were more active in parish activities when you were younger or did you stay pretty active? O'Connor: I wasn't very active.

O'Connor: You know, my two sisters belong to the Catholic daughters.

Barrett: Was that parish that you belong to at that time Irish Catholic? Or mixed up?

O'Connor: They're very Irish. Yeah.

Really, really Irish. And that, church. Well, it's very active when we came in. That's where we went, you know, to Sunday School.

O'Connor: Then it burned down.

Then they rebuilt it and they had the dedication-- We were all down there, and they had-- There

O'Connor: were so many that they couldn't all get in the

church, so they had it on the outside. And my sister and her husband,

O'Connor: they were standing there, and my sister happened to see this pickpocket. And he was going from one man's wallet to another. And she told Ed, you

know, he's a big, tall, handsome fella. And she told him. Then he watched too.

O'Connor: And he said, Mary,

you you keep your eye on him. And he said, I'll go get the police. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: And so he went and got the police. And so I can remember--

Barrett: Then they grabbed the guy.

O'Connor: And they grabbed the guy and he didn't get far with the wallets. And of course, the, you know, the names and addresses were-- Yeah, but he was a slicker and she just happened to see him do it. Barrett: Yeah.

Can you remember now that you mention it, somebody was telling me something yesterday about crime and you know, even in a pretty small town like this-- Can you remember anything about that? And who was involved in it?

O'Connor: Well, not above the tracks, but below the tracks. There was what they called-- I just-- This is hearsay now. Barrett: Yes. O'Connor: The Carter Gang, and they were, they were supposed to be very, very bad. You know, and they called them the Carter Gang.

And I only know this from hearsay. Oh, Mr. and Mrs. Stewart that were friends with my mothers and father.

Barrett: What sort of thing would they be involved in?

Oh, fights. I remember Mrs.

O'Connor: Stewart saying that-- there were a gang of them. The brothers. And they fought among themselves. And she told us, and I never forgot that, that she watched one of the brothers, dragging another brother by the hair of the head over the railroad tracks and along the, you know, down there. That's how bad they were. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: And they were the people.

Older, you know, real old people, still talk about the Carter gang. Barrett: Yeah.

Can you remember things like bootlegging during the Depression?

O'Connor: Yes.

Barrett: That's pretty widespread then. Yeah.

O'Connor: [Laughs] My father made-- He had his own little steel or still[??]. We lived down on Ann or Anne[??] Street and he lived next door to the chief of police.

Barrett: Yeah, well, that's probably a safe place to be.

O'Connor: Yeah, and he had his own. And he would get 100 proof every time.

And Mr. Stewart, he could never make a mistake. You know, I couldn't understand why my father could make it. Barrett: Yeah.

Barrett: Do you know if your dad made it at all back in Scotland or--.

O'Connor: No. No, they didn't need him to make it. [Laughs]

Barrett: Get any place, I guess.

Yeah. O'Connor: That would put lagging. Then there was a

O'Connor: crusader.

Reverend Wood. [inaudible]

Barrett: Was there any kind of Catholic temperance organization? Oh, yes, there still is. Like Pioneer Total Abstinence Society or something like.

O'Connor: And, you know, you go to confession and the man who to confession and then tell them that they had got drunk. It's a big sin there.

Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: And then the,

O'Connor: the priest would make them say the pledge. Barrett: Yeah. O'Connor: And of course, that would only hold good til the next payday. [Laughs]

Yeah, I remember,

O'Connor: you know, different people taking the pledge, each took the pledge last night.

Barrett: But it didn't last too long, as you remember. No.

O'Connor: No, I only know this from hearsay.

Barrett: Would people up in this part of town? I know. I know, a little something from talking to people about saloons and things below the tracks. But were there-- did people up in this end of town where you lived down on Anne Street? Were there saloons up there and--.

O'Connor: Yes, there's a saloon. Mcewen's lived or had a saloon up-- We lived in that house, I told you, that had

the basement kitchen. Well. That was then--

O'Connor: Next was the barbershop, you know, across the alley. See we lived in this house, and then this was the alley. See the house was [inaudible]. This was the ally and then there was a barbershop,

and then there was a--

O'Connor: Shoemaker. Shoe repairman.

And then there was a food store. And then there was a saloon on the corner.

O'Connor: Archie McEwen.

Barrett: Was that an important place in the neighborhood where a lot of people gather?