Munley, Pauline, March 27, 1977, tape 1, side 1

Harry Berger: Okay. What is your name?

Pauline Munley: Pauline Munley

Berger: Pauline Munley. And your birthday. You don't have to give it if you don't want to give it.

Munley: My birth-day. March 3rd. March 20th.

Berger: Okay. Place of birth.

Munley: Campolieto. Provincia de Campobasso.

Berger: Good. I won't even ask how to spell that.

Munley: Provincia means province.

Berger: Yeah, I figured that. Okay. What was your mother's maiden name?

Munley: Anna Pietracatella.

Berger: I'm glad you can pronounce that. Do you remember anything about the--the old country when you come over? Before you come over?

Munley: Uh, yes. I was in the third grade. And I was a play girl. I never went home after school because I was not allowed out of school. I was not allowed to go out after I got home. So instead of going home right after school, I used to play in the schoolyard.

Berger: All right. And the province--where you were at, was that a village or a town?

Munley: A small village.

Berger: What did most of the people do there for an occupation? Munley: Farming. Berger: Oh, farming. Was your dad a farmer, too? Munley: No. No.

Munley: Um, no, I can't say there were really. No. My father was, um a policeman.

Berger: A policeman?

Munley: Yeah. My father was a policeman. And by trade, now he became a policeman. My mother was a peasant. My mother went out to work in a farm, and. But my father was a policeman in this small town. And I can't say it was that small either. But by trade he was--let me see. What would they call it? Um.

Munley: When they take the the. The wool, the the lamb's wool. And then they make it when I skin the lambs.

Berger: Like a shear?

Munley: Yeah. He was a lamb shear.

Berger: Lamb shear.

Munley: Yes. That's what he was by trade. But I really don't remember that much. But all I remember that he was the policeman, he was an officer. He was a carabinero. That's what you call him. Okay.

Berger: What? What languages do you speak?

Munley: Italian. Italian.

Berger: Italian and English.

Munley: Italian and English.

Berger: Okay. And your religion?

Munley: Catholic. Roman Catholic.

Berger: And how long have you been in the? Well, when did you come to-- Munley: To America? Berger: To America.

Munley: 1921. June 13th, 1921.

Berger: Do you remember coming over?

Munley: Yes, I do. [laughter] Okay. From Campobasso--no, from Campolieto, we traveled to Naples, which Naples is a big city in Italy. Uh, I really don't remember that we stayed there, but evidently we stayed there two or three nights. My sister tells me we were robbed--

Berger: Oh in Naples?

Munley: Yeah. She just told me now. I didn't know that. Well, you know, Naples is noted for pickpockets. Berger: I didn't know that either. Munley: Oh, yes, it's noted. And then we went to Palermo. That's where our ship--that's where we boarded the ship.

Berger: How many was in the family that come over with you? Munley: Four. Berger: Four.

Munley: Oh, no--that's right, four.

Berger: Your mother, father--

Munley: No, my mother and my two sisters. There was three of us children. My father was here. Berger: Oh, he was already here. Munley: My father was here. And my brother was here.

Berger: Oh, they come over first.

Munley: My father came to America and he made about 4 or 5 trips back and forth. And my mother was also here when my brother was nine months old. And she took sick. And at the time they told her that she couldn't live in this climate and if she did, she would die. And she was here nine months.

Berger: You mean on account of the smoke and that in the city?

Munley: She--she became allergic to. So she had to. She was going into consumption. My brother was nine months old, and when she took him back, he was 18 months old. And then when he was 18 years old, then he came.

Berger: Oh, he went back-- he went back to the old country?

Munley: Oh, yeah. We were all born in Italy. We were all born in Italy. Actually, we should have been born here. But let's see. My father made about 5 or 6 trips back and forth.

Berger: Well, he was over here 18 years then before he brought the rest of the family?

Munley: Un uh. After--no. Then he came. He kept going back. No, he wasn't here. Maybe he'd be here for 3 or 4. I see--I don't remember all this, but he was here maybe for 4 or 5 years, and he'd go back and then he'd come back again. And then he'd go back, you know? And then the last time when we--I really don't know how long my father was here before he sent for us. That I can't remember.

Berger: Do you remember when you first come into the United States? Munley: Yeah. Berger: Do you remember what port you come into?

Munley: Yeah. Ellis Island.

Berger: And how was that? Is that a lot of confusion?

Munley: A lot of people. And my first impression of America was we were told that the America was rich. And my first impression of America was I thought that the minute you came in, you saw money. And the only thing I saw that my first impression was when I saw when we landed in Ellis Island. And of course, my father met us at the--met us there. And then we came on the boat to the, you know, right into New York. I saw clothes hanging out. And I have never forgotten that. I thought that was terrible.

Berger: And they didn't do that in the old country?

Munley: Well, no, I mean, my impression of America was such a rich that I didn't think that people hung clothes out! [laughter] Berger: Oh, that's true. Yeah, they'd-- Munley: For sure! We were coming to America and America was rich. I mean, sure, we--this is what I said when I saw the all these clothes hanging out because we came in June, I thought, oh, that's terrible. You know.

Berger: What did you come straight from Ellis Island to Pittsburgh then? Munley: Mmhm. Berger: He had already had a job here?

Munley: My father? Yeah. He lived in Pittsburgh.

Berger: What did he do here?

Munley: He worked for the city. Oh, excuse me. He worked for the city. He was a city sweeper.

Berger: And then where did you--where was the first place yinz lived in Pittsburgh?

Munley: 62 Marion Street.

Berger: Where's that? Munley: By Mercy Hospital. Berger: What part of town is that? Mercy? Munley: Uptown. Berger: Oh, Upper Hill--is that the Upper Hill?

Munley: You know where the Mercy Hospital is now?

Berger: Not real well, no.

Munley: No, no. It's not the Upper Hill. It's just called really Downtown.

Berger: Yeah, I know where it's at. Yeah.

Munley: Mercy Hospital. It's downtown. Yeah, well, I would say it's Uptown. That's exactly what it's called. It's not called the Hill District, now. The Hill District was on the other side of the--over by Wabash bulding-- by Wabash where the arena is now. That was the Hill district, see? Ours was just Uptown.

Berger: Was that all Italian families over there then?

Munley: No. No, I wouldn't say all. I would say majority next door were Jewish.

Berger: Yeah. Did it seem funny coming? Did you speak any English at all? Munley: No. Berger: It seemed like sort of a strange world?

Munley: Naturally. Naturally. We had this Jewish people living next door to us. And when we would go out and play, my mother used to say, usbeck and finally then he would start calling us usbeck, usbeck! Wait, wait. Wait, I'll come after you.

Berger: I was just going to ask you what that meant. Munley: Usbeck usbeck--wait, wait. Berger: Do you belong to any type of ethnic organizations, or did you or your parents at the time?

Munley: Um, no. Berger: No.

Munley: I did later. I bowled with the Italian Sons and Daughters, but that was years later. When I say I belong 25 years ago.

Berger: Do you belong to it now? Munley: No. No.

Berger: What was your-- Munley: Oh, you mean now? I belong--no, no, not an ethnic organization-- Berger: Well, the Italian S-- Munley: I still--no, I don't belong to it.

Berger: What about your parents? Were they born in the same village? Munley: Yeah. Berger: When--did youse own your first home or did you just live with other relatives or?

Munley: No, no. We rented. Berger: You rented.

Berger: How long did you live there?

Munley: We lived there about three years.

Berger: Then where'd you move to?

Munley: Then we moved to 1355 Vickroy Street.

Berger: In the same area?

Munley: Same area. Only 3 or 4 blocks away.

Berger: Did youse buy then or did you--

Munley: No. Never bought. Never owned anything.

Berger: When you were growing up, how far did you go in school?

Munley: Eighth grade.

Berger: You went to eighth grade.

Munley: But, I went to night high school for three years.

Berger: And did you have any other special training? Did you have? You--you run--well, you have the beauty shop. So you went to--

Munley: Yeah, I was, yeah. I trained as a beauty-- Beauty culture. Beauty operator.

Munley: Cosmetology! That is what's called.

Berger: Is that your first job? You can remember when you first grew up?

Munley: No, no, no. My first job was with Joseph Rogo and Sons. And they made house dresses and Polish...dust caps.

Berger: What did you do there?

Munley: I folded. [laughter] Berger: Folded? Munley: I was a folding gal. I folded the housedresses. Berger: For packaging? Munley: No, you just fold them. There was a folder.

Berger: Was it like a store or a manufacturer?

Munley: No, it was a--it was a manufacturer. They manufactured housedresses and dust caps. Yeah, that's--ask your mother [????].

Berger: What--what did you go on? What was your next job after that?

Munley: My next job after that was-- I was a stencil girl.

Berger: How old were you then?

Munley: About 16. I worked for Grady Films where they made, um. Sports lettering.

Berger: Sports lettering. What did that--

Munley: For the football. Any kind of a lettering on your-- Berger: On your uniform? Munley: --sports shirts. Sports shirt.

Berger: You know. Well how old would you were you when you had your first job with the folders?

Munley: I was about, I don't know, about 15, 16.

Berger: Then where did--what type of what type of wages did they pay then?

Munley: Oh. Okay. About $8 a week. Berger: For how many-- Munley: $11 a week if you worked overtime.

Berger: And how many days would that be?

Munley: About five days. Six days a week.

Berger: Six days? How many hours?

Munley: Eight hours a day, I guess.

Berger: Was it eight then, or was it.

Munley: I think it was.

Berger: What was your--do you remember your highest and lowest paying jobs in them times?

Munley: Oh, sure. About $12.

Berger: What was that?

Munley: Uh, at where I was a stencil girl. They paid very high there. $15 a week, if you were lucky to get it. If you worked about 60 hours.

Berger: Was that good money then?

Munley: Oh, sure. That was very good money. Don't forget they didn't take any income tax off. [laughs] That was straight.

Berger: Yeah, that's true. I didn't think of that. Was there a particular reason that your parents came to Pittsburgh? They just happened to end up here?

Munley: Yeah, well, yes. Yes, probably. I don't know. You see, my grandfather--my grandfather is buried here in Calvary Cemetery.

Berger: Oh, you had other relatives already here?

Munley: Yeah, but my grandfather was dead when we--we came here. We never knew [??]. My father's father, he left my grandmother with. Oh,let's see. [counts from one to four] Six children.

Berger: Six children.

Munley: He was a traveling salesman. [laughs]

Berger: I see that now.

Munley: You're going to learn a lot.

Berger: Did he leave her or did he die?

Munley: No. He died here.

Berger: Oh, that's--that's when he left.

Munley: What do you mean that's when he left?

Berger: Well, you said he--he left.

Munley: He left my grandmother in Italy.

Berger: Oh, he left your--

Munley: He left my grandmother. That would be my father's mother. He left my grandmother in Italy. This is before my time. This is what we are told. This is what we were told. Berger: Yeah. Munley: And, uh. And let's see, what year did he die? I don't remember, but I don't think my father was here when he died. In other words, he just left. He left my grandmother. He came here to America and he never got in touch with her.

Berger: I imagine. And your father decided to come here because he related it with his father--

Munley: Well, then you see, my father came here because there were two other brothers that were here, but actually, they never--he never came to live with them or anything. But he had two other brothers that lived here.

Berger: When he--did he--was he--a street cleaner when he first came or was he work some other jobs? Munley: I don't know.

Munley: That's--he really always worked with--I'd say labor. Berger: He was a laborer. Munley: Labor. Yeah. He just did nothing but laboring jobs. Oh, that was a good job when he was a street cleaner. If his party got in in the city, he got it--he was a street cleaner. That was a good job. [laughs] When his party--when his political party went up, then he was out of a job. Berger: When you were--go ahead. Munley: But surprisingly, after we move to our third house. After all these years, we found out that my father--my grand--my grandfather, my mother--my father's father, his girlfriend lived next door to us, Mrs. Scheibel. When she heard our name, she couldn't believe it. That was her boyfriend.

Berger: Oh, small world. Even at that time, huh? When you remember as a kid growing up, was there any type of. Oh, I'll say racial discrimination for being Italian.

Munley: No, I can't really say. Although we were called the Italian girls. [laughs]

Berger: Italian girls?

Munley: Yeah, because we went to Saint Peter's School. The reason we were--there were all Italians, but we were called the Italian girls because we couldn't speak English. [laughs]

Berger: How long--how long were you ever here before you learned to speak English?

Munley: Oh, I really don't think it took us long. As soon as we went to school, I mean, I really can't remember.

Berger: There was a lot of other--

Munley: They were all Italians.

Berger: Oh, everyone in your class was Italian?

Munley: Yes. Yes, all Italians.

Berger: You have Italian teachers, too?

Munley: No. Yes. Well, we went to the Italian school.

Berger: That was Saint Peter's.

Munley: That was Saint Peter's that they taught Italian the same as your Polish in the South Side and all. It was--it was one of those things that if you were from--excuse me--if you were an Italian, you went to the Italian school. So that and you had so much maybe an hour a day that the nuns taught children Italian if they didn't get it at home.

Berger: Well, I mean, when you first come over there, there must have been Italian teachers that you could talk to, you to teach you English in school, too. Otherwise it would be.

Munley: No, you know, that's one thing I can't remember. Berger: Yeah. Munley: You know, you were in class and you just try, you know, it's surprisingly it's really surprise how you can pick it up immediately, you know.

Berger: Just from the neighbors and everything?

Munley: Well, from the neighbors. And the first--I think we lived with this family two years and they were Italian. And believe me, we couldn't understand them and they couldn't understand us because they were different Italians.

Berger: From different parts of Italy?

Munley: They were Sicilians. And the kids couldn't speak that well. And the mother and father, they talked such a dialect that it was very hard. Now, we spoke. We didn't speak the dialect. We really spoke Italian. Now, my mother and father, it may be in the home. We would speak the dialect, the slang, you might as well say. But at any time that you would be talking to anyone else, then you immediately would turn and speak the real Italian language just the way it's written.

Berger: You remember--that time I guess the church was a big part in life of-- Munley: Right. Berger: Did they have any type of festivities or Saints days or anything--

Munley: Oh, beautiful. That was really a terrific. We could hardly wait until summer came. June the 13th was Saint Anthony. That was a big festival. And then came July the 26th, which was Saint Anne, and that was another big fest. Then came August the 15th, and it was another big feast.

Berger: What did they actually do?

Munley: They had the band on the streets and they played the band and they sang and they danced on the street. And they were all-- everybody had a good time.

Munley: Everybody. They closed maybe 2 or 3 streets.

Berger: How long did these festivities go on for? Munley: Uh, the weekend. Berger: The whole weekend? Munley: Mhm.

Munley: It would start maybe Friday night, Saturday and Sunday. Berger: All night? Munley: Oh no, no, no. 12:00 they would--but that was,that was terrific.

Munley: That was very--oh, that was good living. You could hardly wait until you got there. And everybody--you couldn't sit, everybody stood up. There might have been 2 or 300 people around, just like going to a concert in--at the outdoors--to Schenley Park.

Berger: Did everybody bring their own food and stuff?

Munley: Oh, no, you didn't eat. It was mostly in the evening. All this took place in the evening.

Berger: Just a lot of dancing and--

Munley: A lot of dancing, singing, entertainment on the street. Anything you wanted to do. But it was strictly on the street. And again--oh, well, first of all, this would start at the church, the feast day of the saint. And you prayed and you followed that, prayed from the the big occasions to the big feast would take with the high mass and so forth would take place in the church. And then after the church, why you these people carried flags with the they carried the all--the--the--all the nationality flags, including the American flag. Plus...they carry the the picture of a saint. Whatever--could have been Saint Anthony, the Immaculate Conception or whatever. But it was beautifully done on, say, on a great big canvas, you know, And maybe it would take, uh. It would take two men to carry it because it would stretch out like on a pole. On these two poles. And then people would go along and they believed in this and they would pin dollars, $5, $10. And this was the big thing. Naturally, that money paid for the band and part of it went to the church and I don't know what else they did with it. Berger: So the church-- Munley: Lots and lots of money pinned on this, uh, Saints canvas. The picture of it.

Berger: So the church played a big role then when you were growing up?

Munley: Oh, yeah. Big role. But the people did not give like they do today.

Berger: Oh, you think they give more money today?

Munley: Oh, definitely. People did not give. Well, first of all, they didn't have as much money to give, including I mean, okay, they passed the basket, whatever you could give. But most people you--you never saw dollar bills. I never remember seeing dollar bills. We were always taught. We threw pennies in. We had a nickel and a dime to put in a church every Sunday.

Berger: Of course, money at that time was probably--

Munley: Well naturally was scarce. That's what I said. You didn't see dollars.

Berger: Do you remember at that time? Well, I guess that would be--oh, around the time of the Great Depression. You remember when that first came in? Munley: Yeah. Berger: Were you still living in the same place?

Munley: Yeah, we were still living in--well, no, we weren't living. We were living at Vickroy Street by Mercy Hospital. That would have been our second home.

Berger: How did that that affect you? Did that affect you very greatly? I mean, was everybody still working when the Depression came in?

Munley: Well, we were--my father was in--my father was was still a--he worked for the--was it WPAE? No, what was it?

Munley: It was a government work.

Berger: The work program?

Munley: The work program.

Berger: The WPA.

Munley: WPA. That's right.

Berger: Was there a lot of a--lot of people on the streets at that time? I mean, like extra--

Munley: Yeah. Lots of people on the street. Lots and lots of people. The best thing I remember, ice cream, two for a nickel and we got-- we got a nickel cone on payday, and every Thursday we got the small cones. Two for a nickel. When the little cart came around.

Berger: What did--what did yinz do for entertainment then during the Depression?

Munley: What did we do for entertain? We played the Victrola [laughs], danced in our parlor. We played lotto.

Berger: Lotto? What's lotto?

Munley: Yeah. We played lotto--like bingo. Berger: Oh. Munley: That was lotto. And--we were--we just went to each other's house. Shows was unheard of in my family.

Berger: Oh, you weren't allowed to go to show?

Munley: No. We weren't allowed to go to show. We weren't allowed to go to show alone unless we had an escort. [laughs] And then we had to have another escort to--for the other escort. Oh, we played ball. I still have a scar. We had a field. We played ball. We steal each other's skates because my father couldn't afford to buy us skates. And he didn't believe in us skating because we would get hurt. So when he went to church on Sunday, somebody left our skates on underneath our porch. And my sister and I would go out and by Mercy Hospital and we'd each have one skate and we try to learn how to skate. And then one day he came home and he found him and he says, where did you get them? I says, We found them under that porch. And he says, Put them back. And so the kid, whoever left them there, will have to come in and pick them up. So we lost our [??].

Berger: Do you remember at that time, I guess that's when the unions were coming in. Around the 30s and they had the steel strikes and all these different things?

Munley: Yeah, but I didn't--

Munley: I didn't. No, no, no. My father never had that kind of a job to be involved into a--into the.

Munley: Gee, I really don't even know. When did the unions come in?

Berger: Well, I guess they--come around in the 20s. But they were, they had that-- Munley: Yeah, but they weren't-- Berger: --big steel strike up there in Homestead. They were out there and all those Pinkertons and that that were sent up there and they had all that bloodshed. That was right up the river. Did--did you leave any relatives back in the old country or did everyone come over with you?

Munley: Our family. All our family. But my grandmother and my father's brother and our cousins--which we, we would never know them.

Munley: Only my father's sisters. And his mother. But the immediate family? No.

Berger: Did you get to go back there at all since-- Munley: Never. Berger: You never went back? Munley: Would like to. Berger: What parish do you belong to now? Munley: Saint Basil's. Berger: Do you ever get back over to Saint Peter's?

Munley: Well, Saint Peter's is no longer there. Hasn't been there for years and years. Berger: Oh, see. Munley: Well, this is where the Chatham Center is.

Berger: Oh, I didn't know where it was at.

Munley: Oh, sure. The only church standing is Epiphany. The Epiphany was on--where it is now, [??] Street. And then Saint Peter's was the next block. And that was going down. And that's where the Chatham Center is.

Berger: Do you remember when they tore that down?

Munley: Yes, I certainly do. And as crazy as I am about antiques, you know what? I never went over there to get a brick.

Berger: Did you feel bad when you-- Munley: Yeah. Berger: --something like that.

Munley: Terrible. Terrible. Everybody carried on. Although at the time, we didn't belong there [unintelligible]. [unintelligible] I'm trying to figure out.

Munley: When? How long ago is it? It has to be at least 20 years. Maybe more than that. At least 20.

Berger: When they had the--that was church was mostly Italians--for the Italians. Munley: All Italians. Berger: Did they have the mass? I know the mass was in Latin, but did they have the sermons and that in Italian?

Munley: All Italian. All Italian. Berger: Oh, they did? Munley: Never English.

Berger: I guess that's a...thing of the past. You don't see that too much anymore.

Munley: Nowhere. Nowhere at all.

Berger: Do you remember when the--well, I guess you do remember when the--when the war started with Italy. How did yinz feel about that? Here was your country yinz came from and we were going to war against it.

Munley: Be very honest with you, I didn't pay that much attention. [laughs]

Berger: No, I thought, you know, since--you had friends still over there.

Munley: Yeah. No, we didn't--I didn't. No, that didn't impress me that much. You mean Mussolini and all that? Berger: Yeah. Munley: No.

Berger: Well, then after yinz--where did--