Nixon, Anne, March 23, 1976, tape 2, side 1

Barbara Billups: Did--oh no I didn't ask you about that one--I'm curious about that one, but I was asking you about the World War and how it changed your identity any. Anne Nixon: Well, I can't really say that it did because I raised my mother evidently raised me to feel that I was just as good. I could do anything the other guy could do. Right. And I proved it by, you know, being in among the best in the class. And then when my children came along, I added to that that in order to get to the top, you're going to have to be better than the White guy. Billups: Dig that. Nixon: And this is what my children strived for, and they were able to make it. And they're all doing good.

Billups: Okay. Um, did the organization, which is the NAACP, did it change your attitudes, beliefs or anything such as, I guess, towards your ethnic group or towards anything really? Nixon: I don't think that I can say that it changed my attitudes in any way. I really haven't gotten that involved with it. And even when I get the magazine, I don't read it as faithfully as I should to know what they're actually doing. Um, I suppose that they are doing some good. I know when that girl was being accused down there in one of the Carolinas on that rape case, they stepped in and they. Billups: Why do I forget her name? Denise Little--no. Littles, Littles Nixon: Some kind of Little. Billups: No, Little, Little, Little, Dot? No. How could I forget? Nixon: We're talking about the same girl. Billups: Yeah. Okay. Did you save any money through this organization, or did you ever take out insurance through this organization? Or did you ever borrow any money? Nixon: No. Billups: No kind of transactions, whatsoever? Nixon: Through the organization? Billups: Uh, right. Nixon: No. Billups: Okay. Um, what was the ethnic group of your spouse, he was Black? Nixon: Uh, he. He was Black, but he had no, uh.

Nixon: Um, he belonged to something where he worked when he was living. I don't mean when he was living, when he was at the building, but I don't think that it was anything too important. I think they just had that organization for the purpose of raising a little money for the men to do something for each other in case of sickness or death or something like that. And other than that, he did not belong to anything other than our church. He did not belong to our church as long as I did, because he only came to Pittsburgh in 1930. He came from North Carolina, and this was the first church that he--his brother belonged to that church, his brother and the brother's family. So [chimes sound] then he came to our church on account of his brother. And we met in 32 and got married that same year. And he was very active in church until his job took him away from Pittsburgh. The last ten years of his life, he had been laid off by the railroad here in Pittsburgh and could not get employment here and went to New York City and was able to get the kind of employment with the railroad that he wanted and lived with our daughter, who lived in New York City at that time and came home like every couple of weekends or something.

Billups: I see. So any of your children belong to any kind of organizations? Do you know of? Nixon: My oldest son at one time used to be a whatever, the top office of the local thing of the NAACP--president or whatever it is. He used to be president in--Mama, where do the girls live? Mama, how come I can't think of? Nixon's Mother: Sacramento. Nixon: No, no, no. My--my sister in law's--Schenectady, New York. He used to be the--the president and his wife used to be treasurer at one time, and they were quite active in the NAACP. Now, the son in California, none of the other three, I don't recall them being active in any ethnic groups at all. Billups: Okay. Do you know why? No, I don't. I think the sun out in California, perhaps his type of work. I know the places where he lived has kept him out of touch with Blacks because he always lives--I suppose he got into this habit from when he was in the service and he was an officer, and the officers were always quartered away from the regular men, you know, And there was always like two Blacks to 50 Whites. And so he was consequently constantly thrown in with Whites and then when he came out of the service and began to live in the community.

Nixon: He's always still lived in where Whites are! Billups: I see. Okay. What was the most crucial aspects for you for being--of being Black when you were growing up? And I think you probably mentioned that already. Nixon: I probably did. I the only thing that I could call crucial was those few times when I tried to get jobs and was turned down. Billups: Right. And you did say that that the Urban League helped you with these problems. Nixon: Well, they got me a job. Billups: Right. Nixon: It was at a Black place, though. I never did get a job at a White place, a decent job I worked at, like I told you at Gammon's. But I was back in the kitchen, you know, stringing beans and stuff. Billups: How about the NAACP? Did they ever help you? Nixon: No. Well, see, I wasn't acquainted with them back in those days. That was the Urban League was the one that I knew then. Billups: Okay. What is the role of women in your organization, which is the NAACP? What is the. Nixon: I don't really know because I don't do anything with the NAACP. All I do is just pay my money. And like I say, I don't get involved in any way whatsoever.

Nixon: I don't go to any of their meetings or anything. The only time I've ever been to any of their meetings was when I was trying to help Tim Stevens retain his position. They had gotten a new whatever the person is and the local person director, I guess, or president or something. And he and Tim were not getting along too well and he was about to throw him out. And Tim's mother and I have been lifelong friends because we went to school together. And so I had gone to a couple of meetings with her trying to help her son stay in there, but the man finally threw him out anyhow. Billups: Oh, wow. Okay. I like this question. What ethnic group do you feel is closer to your own? Nixon: Say that again. Billups: Question, what ethnic group do you think is closer to your own? Nixon: To my own-- Billups: To the Black ethnic group. Which other ethnic group do you think is closer to our ethnic group? Nixon: I'm not sure I still understand you. I'm not. I don't know too many ethnic groups. Let's see. There would be the NAACP and the Urban League. Billups: No, I'm talking about ethnic groups such as Jews--Jews. Nixon: Oh, now I'm with you. Now I'm with you. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Nixon: Um hm. That's a hard question. The Jews--I don't know too much about them, but I know that the women have something they call B'nai B'rith, don't they? And I don't know what they do, though. Well, you don't know any more about it than I do. And they have something similar to our YWCA that's very active, the YM and WHA. Billups: And see what I mean is what what group of people do you identify with other than Blacks? You know what I'm saying? Like, for myself, I might think that-- Nixon: You mean that I'm working with or involved with-- Billups: That I think you might be closer with like, do you think might be closer with like, sometimes people might say Jewish people because they had to go through the same. Nixon: Oh, oh. Billups: You see what I'm saying? Prejudices. Nixon: You're saying What other group do I think may have problems that are similar to us? Billups: Right. Or that you may you may identify to other than your own or you think is closer to your group as being Black. Nixon: People tell me the Jews. But I can't see that because if you got a White skin-- Billups: Dig that. Nixon: --you you can't have our problems. So I would rather say, it seems to me it would either be the Chinese people or the Japanese people or the Indians, anybody that looks different. Billups: Indians, Puerto Ricans-- Nixon: But if you're White--Puerto Ricans, that's great because they really in New York City, I'm telling you, they got a problem that is this high. And my youngest son said that some of them do not realize that their problem, the solution to their problem lies with us. Billups: Right.

Nixon: And they try to hang with the Whites. And yet the Whites don't consider them White and just keep them around like a [??]. He says that sometime they really get misused very badly. Whereas, of course, we--we've been here so long that we know what the White man's putting down, you know? And so then we got his number. I think the Puerto Ricans would probably be it because the Indians there's not that many. And I don't think there's that many Japanese and Chinese--not on this side of the coast anyhow. Perhaps on the East--West coast there would be. Billups: Right. Yeah, that's a lot-- Nixon: But you really hit the nail with the Puerto Ricans, yeah. Getting around New York. It's really sad. Billups: Yeah, I was there like in New York City, like for this past summer, you know, not the whole summer, but during the spring. And like, Manhattan, it's a lot of Puerto Ricans around there. Yeah, And they. They have it bad. Nixon: They really do. Their housing is terrible. Billups: And which--which ethnic group do you think is more different from yours? Nixon: Um, the most different, I guess. I guess it would be the the White people who think that they are derived from the English or something. Billups: Yeah like-- Nixon: They have a tendency to think they're better than everybody. Billups: I know what you're talking about. Nixon: Boston. Billups: Uh huh. I'm exactly what you talking about. Nixon: Right. Right. Billups: Okay. Um. You should have ended. No, I got a new one. The. That's right. Um, let me see.

Billups: You gave all this. He pauses. Okay. What class do you identify with? Low, middle, high?

Nixon: Um. The very lowest, lowest, lowest level of the middle class. [laughter] My son is the one that's coming in from New York. He tries to tell me that I'm a little bit higher than that. And I suppose he's right, because like I said before, I assume that my--I know that my pension is a little more comfortable than a lot of people. And so probably they're on the upper levels of poor. And so that's why I say I'm on the lower level of of the middle class. I really think that's what I should say. Um. Maybe not the very bottom right, but somewhere in that area. Billups: I see what you're saying.

Billups: So do you think there's any kind of class distinction within this neighborhood or society? You know what I'm saying? Like, is there a difference really?

Nixon: In this neighborhood? I don't think so. Okay, that's good.

Billups: Um, has your membership in the NAACP affected your chances on moving to a higher class, do you think?

Nixon: I doubt that. If I wanted to move to a higher class, I think my relationship with the organizations that I belong to that are interracial would help me better on that score. Um, but I'm not interested.

Nixon: I'm satisfied where I--I don't see nothing wrong with the Hill.

Billups: I know. Are there members in your organization that do belong to the upper class or think they belong to the upper class?

Nixon: Now, if you're asking me about the NAACP, I still don't know who belongs. Billups: Okay. But how about your church then? Nixon: I would be willing to say--in our church we have a small segment of people who think that they are in the upper class. We have a man, for instance, who was just recently promoted to manager of one of the EquiBanks. And I'm sure he probably thinks that he's, you know, pretty hot stuff. And we have a lady doctor who has just recently, I would say, in the last 2 or 3 years, joined our church. And I think that she would probably think that she's higher than some.

Billups: Yeah I see. Okay. Um. Well, no, that's too--how did your parents teach you about color consciousness? And you were saying, though, that you really didn't--you weren't color conscious until recently, right?

Nixon: That's right. I don't I don't remember my mother ever saying anything to me about color. And actually, I was in my teens and my peers taught me that you have to watch White people. Because, see, we always lived in a Black neighborhood. And I wasn't raised with Whites to to know that they were tricky or whatever it is that we finally decide that they are. But when I went to Schenley, then that's when the Black kids started telling me that you have to watch the White ones, because I was as far as I was concerned, you know, if if that's an A student, then I'm an A student. Then we're on a level. That's the way I felt. I didn't want to be bothered with the E students because they didn't want to go anywhere and they don't want to do anything. You know, I want to be bothered with the better element. And this was the way I was going to work things. But then my friends, my Black friends, they started telling me, No, you can't. You I mean, you know, you can't just trust White people as a whole. This is what they would say to me.

Nixon: And I began taking that in. I was still friendly, but like the rest of the Blacks, I guess I had my eyes open, you know, and, you know, kind of watching them. And I also found out that in a few instances the teachers would do little dirty things to the Black ones to try to keep them behind or something. Billups: Yeah. Nixon: And I know in my own children were in junior high school. Naturally, I always wanted them to take all the academic work that they could because I had my heart set on everybody going to college and my two older boys could play violins very well, and the school wanted them to be in the orchestra, but in order to be in the orchestra, they was going to have to give up something important. I had to go up there and actually argue with that woman. I told her she's got to be out of her mind. I said, Why? They can play an orchestra any old time, but this is it for now. They got to take their math and their English and whatever. All those important things were. You know, I wasn't following.

Billups: That's what they're doing for athletes now, you know, I mean, they put that first, right? Like, you know, it's just like they don't have to know anything. Only reason they're in college so they can play on the teams.

Nixon: Everyone else is doing their work and handing in their papers and getting their marks. That's bad. That's bad. Because when you wear out as an athlete, you got nothing-- Billups: Yeah, dig it. Nixon: --up here.

Billups: Nothing at all, You know, where are you going to work?

Nixon: That's right. Unless you make an awful lot of money. And then you got to be smart enough to know what to do with it, to keep it looking. Joe Lewis, all the money he made and somebody just dug him right out of almost every penny.

Billups: That's pathetic. Now, how old did you say you were again? 63? Nixon: Yes Billups: 63. So you were born when?

Nixon: 1912.

Billups: 1912. So that means that you wouldn't really remember the steel strike in 1919, huh?

Nixon: In Pittsburgh, huh? Billups: Yeah. Nixon: We weren't here then. We didn't come to Pittsburgh until 22.

Billups: 22? Nixon: Yeah. Billups: Oh, I see. Okay. Do you remember the racial disturbances in the 40s?

Nixon: Racial disturbances?

Billups: See you might not have got even any kind of whiff of it because you're in a Black neighborhood.

Nixon: Right. Right. The only racial disturbances that I know of in the Hill district here is when Martin Luther King died. We had all those. What was that? That was in the late 60s. Yeah, 60s. Billups: I remember that. Nixon: They bombed every White store.

Billups: I remember that.

Nixon: Oh, I'll remember that forever and ever, I guess.

Billups: Okay, well, how do you feel about the younger Black movement since Martin Luther King?

Nixon: I think it has done a great deal of good. I think it's a very good thing. And I'm glad that now it has lost a lot of its militancy. Martin Luther King was not for that. Billups: Right, that's true. Nixon: He accomplished a great deal in his way. And I really thought that the militant attitude was a bad one because there's not enough of us Blacks and we don't have enough stuff to be that militant. You know. Billups: I see what you're saying. Nixon: And so I really appreciated it when they began to quiet down on that. And I think it has. I don't know when we'll have another leader as strong as Martin Luther King, but I don't think that the momentum has--it has slowed down, but I don't think it has stopped. I think we're still making progress. Billups: Right. Okay.

Billups: And what do you remember of the sections of the Hill District called Arthursville, Minersville, and Haiti? Do you remember any sections being called that? I never heard about it before.

Nixon: I remember a Minersville school. It used to be right down there on Centre Avenue. I don't remember sections of the Hill. Haiti?

Billups: I haven't even heard of that myself. I mean, I haven't been here that long, but I haven't even heard it talked about.

Nixon: No, I don't remember. Sections called that. [chimes sound] This is called Herron Hill. The next section right over there is Schenley Heights, and over that way they used to call that Gazzam Hill. I don't hear anyone use that expression anymore. But before the projects was put there, they used to call that Gazzam Hill. Okay.

Billups: Has your life been affected any by changes in the Hill District? What kind of changes were there in the Hill District?

Nixon: Well, the biggest changes have been down in the Lower Hill where they tore out the houses and built the civic arena and the Boy Scouts thing and Washington Plaza and all that. But it has not disturbed my life in one way or the other. I didn't have to move anywhere or anything, you know? And, um, fortunately or unfortunately, when they tore down lower Wiley where all the really bad element was, for some reason, the bulk of that moved to Homewood instead of up here. [laughter]

Billups: That's weird.

Nixon: So we missed out on that, thank goodness. And Homewood, they they really are have suffered. You know, they're trying to get up out from under it but it's kind of hard.

Billups: Mhm. Okay. Um, what do you think was the most significant event or occasion that happened to Black people in, in Pittsburgh or the Black community in Pittsburgh?

Nixon: I would like to say the, the riots and things.

Billups: Not that you can say that.

Nixon: That, but on the other hand it got the White people out of the area, but then the remaining Blacks have not banded together enough to bring the neighborhood up then. You know, they just leave it sitting there in the ruins. And I think that's very bad. And I have on occasions I'm a public speaker and I have, uh, spoken on that subject once or twice. And I really think that we ought to be doing more than what we are. There are some areas of the city Homewood-Brushton, for instance, is doing more to help themselves.

Billups: That's what you got to do. You got to help yourself before anybody else will, you know?

Nixon: So I really think we're missing the boat there, but I don't know what we can do about it. We're getting ready to get a shopping center down by Hill City, and I don't know if that's going to help out a whole lot because. I myself. I'm so in the habit now of going to the A&P and the Kroger's across Bloomfield Bridge. I don't know if I'll go.

Billups: Um. Okay. Who were the most outstanding individuals in the Black community? You know, in Pittsburgh. Can you think of any? How about now? If you can't think of any, then.

Nixon: When are we referring to when you say then, when?

Billups: Back when you were growing up in Pittsburgh.

Nixon: I guess, when I was growing up. Judge Homer Brown was a big name to the Blacks because I think during that period of time, he was the only he was about the highest Black somebody we had in this immediate area. And later on, Mr. Utterback became an attorney and was quite well known. And he was. I guess. Did his share of whatever. But, um, it seemed to me that the preachers seemed to have the most influence. They. Seem to be leading. Now, I may be saying this simply because the bulk of my interest all my life has been in church and I have not been that involved in other things. So I--

Billups: Well this is your opinion anyway.

Nixon: Yes. Um hum. Okay. It's possible. And I like the YWCA, for instance, it has had Black women in there further back than I realized because next Sunday I have to give a talk at a tea at Hill House on the impact of the the YWCA on the Black women or something. I have the material over there somewhere that I'm going to use, but I don't have time to get started on it until Thursday. But from some of that material, it sounds like Black women go back a little further than I had, you know, had known. And so I probably don't really know what Black people were doing because I was more or less just involved in church. And that was about all.

Billups: I see. So how about now? Who do you think is outstanding now?

Nixon: Gee, I don't know too much more even now, because the people that I know are still mostly ministers, you know. I'm trying to think. I know that Judge Homer Brown's son is an attorney and that he's rather influential in helping the churches out whenever they may have a legal problem, like if they want to buy property or something or other. He has made himself available, I know, to our church to help us on the legal problems, whatever. And I don't think Mr. Utterback, I believe he has either retired or is getting ready to or something. And the man who works with NEED, I met him and I can't remember his name. He must be doing a pretty good job because they had a very, very good dinner. I tell you somebody, this is still church, though. A Reverend Benny Goodwin. I don't know if you've heard of him. He is a young minister and I don't know how many years back, but I get the impression that it's not more than about ten years back. He and his wife had occasion to go to Haiti, and they saw what a sad situation it was over there. And they came back to the United States and had spent the bulk of their time organizing various groups within and without of the church to help Haiti. And they go all over the country and make speeches and tell about the conditions and everything.

Nixon: And they influenced our church to build a nutrition center in Haiti. It will be operational within the next month or so, and we will be feeding and taking care of children from the age of one through five. And we will also teach their mothers how to prepare whatever foods are available over there in a more nutritional manner so that their children will get a better start in life. And we're also going to teach the men how to farm on whatever tillable land there is and raise more things that can be used. They don't have too much tillable land. I've been there two years ago when our church first started this project, a group of us went to Haiti and saw the land that we had bought and dedicated our land. And we heard a lot of facts about Haiti, you know, and it's quite hilly and quite rocky, so there isn't too much tillable land, but there is some, and the people just need to be trained and taught. Billups: Oh, I see. Nixon: We're going back this July and see our building and dedicate it and we're going to bring back pictures of the children and we're going to ask the members of the church to adopt a child.

Billups: Oh, that's nice. Oh, y'all on the ball. Okay. How do you feel about Amos and Andy? [laughs]

Nixon: At the time that they were on, I enjoyed them. But when people began to object to them, I could see their objections.

Billups: What did they object to him? Because all I all I did was hear hear about them. I never heard any details about them or anything?

Nixon: Well, what the people what the Black people objected to was the fact that they were two White men posing as Black men.

Billups: They were White?

Nixon: Yes, they definitely were White. And when they tried to transfer their program from radio to TV, because, see, originally they were radio before TV's Time. And when they tried to transfer it to TV, then they Blacked their faces. And that really made the Black people mad. You know, it just didn't go over at all. But in their heyday, I don't think the Black community was really upset at first. We we enjoyed them, you know, and they sounded like Black people. And they we didn't really from the radio. You could use your imagination better than you do from TV and you were not quite so aware of the fact that they were White people imitating us. And so we just gave ourselves over to enjoying the program. And oh my. When when one of them was in jail one time, why people would get off from work. They'd be talking about it on the street car, you know, could hardly wait to get home from work to turn on the radio to see what was happening to whichever one of them was was in jail or something. But at the end of their radio career, and especially when they began trying to transfer it over to the television, then the Black people began to get alarmed about it and really got upset. And I could see that. Actually when I was in my teen years in high school. Are you familiar with Paul Laurence Dunbar's poetry?

Billups: Oh, wow, I mean, I know I know a lot of them, but I could point them out right now.

Nixon: Some of them he does in the dialect. In the Negro dialect.

Billups: Yeah. Yeah.

Nixon: That had been spoken I think back in slavery times.

Billups: It's hard for me to really actually, I mean, I can understand when I read it, but it's hard for me to say it.

Nixon: Well, I found out in high school that I had the talent to say that, and I used to say a few poems and the Black children, Colored kids then didn't like for me to do it because they felt that it was a disgrace on our people, you know? And I remember that they very definitely were. And I didn't give them no problem. I mean, you know, they they felt bad about it. So I quit. And I did--only because I was doing it before Whites. That was the thing that they objected to when I would do it at church or, you know, around at other Black churches and all, nobody minded, but they didn't like for me to do it before White people. And I think this is the same thing that the Amos and Andy thing was bringing up, the mere fact that they were imitating us and yet they were White. If it had probably been a couple of Black guys, maybe nobody would have objected as badly.

Billups: Well, how do you feel about Blacks on TV shows and commercials now?

Nixon: Well, I think we're doing a good job now. We are in a position now where we don't have to pretend, you know, that we're White. We just go ahead and be our own thing. Right. And I think we're doing a great job. I saw Flip Wilson's special. Last week at somebody's house. I saw most of it and I thought he was just fabulous. And I really don't like him that well. [laughs]

Billups: I know you, after a while--

Nixon: [??] show. I thought he was real great. I don't like his Geraldine thing.

Billups: You get tired. I used to like him, but I got--it got kind of monotonous after a while, but I think people still like it, you know?

Nixon: And I don't like his throw off on the church when he gets up there. He's preaching. I don't like that.

Billups: I didn't think you would.

Nixon: But I tell you who I do like is Bill Cosby. And I think he is super.

Billups: I think he's magnificent with kids, too.

Nixon: He really is. You know. Danny Kaye and the United States sent him all over the world on a good--goodwill tour or something or other with the children.

Billups: For soldiers. And for soldiers too?

Nixon: No, he was mostly with the children. I didn't quite understand the program, but it was like a goodwill thing where he would go in. He had a way with children just like Bill Cosby. Well, I think Bill Cosby is better than him. And he was really great. He had the children singing one of those songs, something about all the children of the world.

Billups: I think I know what you're talking about.

Nixon: And another song he had the children do. He was really fabulous with children. This Danny Kaye was. But I think Bill Cosby is as good, if not better. He is really good. When I see those commercials of his-- Billups: Oh, they're fabulous. I don't believe that. Nixon: And they jammed them down their throats.

Billups: He's just so natural with them.

Nixon: Yes, yes he really is.

Billups: Okay. In the 1920s, membership in the Ku Klux Klan was over 6,000,000 in the United States. Nixon: My goodness. Billups: There are probably that many now. [laughter] Nixon: Undercover! Billups: Do you remember any of their activities?

Nixon: No, I don't remember hearing about the Ku Klux Klan until I guess I must have been maybe in high school or something. And we began hearing just a little bit about how they were treating the Blacks in the South and that they were being lynched and things of that kind. But I don't think we really heard enough for us to get really alarmed about it. I've heard more about the active activities of what the Ku Klux Klan used to do since Martin Luther King, you know, really began to bring the Blacks out into their own than what I had ever heard before. I don't know anyone of my personal acquaintance who knows anybody who had a personal experience with the Ku Klux Klan.

Nixon: It's just all hearsay.

Speaker3: Right. Let me turn this over.