Norman, Willie, April 9, 1976, tape 1, side 1

Jon Eric Johnson: Interview is with Mr. Willie C. Norman. Okay, Mr. Norman. First of all, could you give some basic information, a little bit of background? Like your name and your age? Willie C. Norman: My name is Willie C. Norman. Age 61. I'll be 62 in November. Johnson: Okay. Could you tell us your place of birth? State, county, maiden name of mother, et cetera, et cetera? I was born in Lincoln in Georgia, in 1914. Mother's maiden name is Maude Collins. Johnson: Maude Collins. Norman: Maude Collins. Johnson: But your father. Norman: Father? Jess Norman. Johnson: Just go ahead and just keep going. Norman: He, um. My father was the son of a White plantation owner who had a mistress that he kept just like the rest of his family, like his White family. He had three sons by this mistress and two daughters, five children. He came from-- Johnson: What part? Where was this located? Where was it? Norman: In Lincoln County, Georgia. Johnson: Georgia. Okay.

Norman: In the state of Georgia. Johnson: Ethnic origin and identity. Okay. You say that your father was the son of a white plantation owner. Norman: That's right. Johnson: Okay. How did you identify with yourself today? Norman: I identify with the Black American citizens. Citizenry. Johnson: Were you aware of any other languages being used down in Lincoln County, Georgia area when you were coming up, as opposed to just English? Norman: No, nothing. Nothing except the English language. Johnson: Okay. What was your father's occupation? Norman: My father was was a farmer until he went into the First World War where he got killed. Johnson: Okay. When you were coming up, did you have any specific religious affiliations or congregation down in Lincoln County, Georgia, or did you migrate? Norman: Um, we did.

Norman: We did attend a Baptist church in the in the area there. My, my, my parents and my grandparents belonged to a Baptist church, and that's my first association with the church community. Johnson: What about politics? Norman: in Georgia? Uh, to my to my best of my knowledge, there weren't any at that time. Johnson: Why is this? Norman: Well, this was-- we left Georgia in 1923, and at that time, I was pretty young fella and I wasn't aware of any politics being played in that area. Johnson: Well, how long have you lived in Pittsburgh area? Norman: As I said before, we we left in 1923. Johnson: And you came directly to Pittsburgh. Norman: Uh, North Braddock. Johnson: North Braddock. Okay. Then we'd say in Pittsburgh then. It's in the Pittsburgh area. Norman: Yes. That's right. Johnson: Do you have any membership in the ethnic fraternals, such as NAACP or. Norman: Uh, not at the present time. I'm not a member of the NAACP. I have been for years. I dropped out. Uh, I am a Mason. A Mason.

Johnson: Uh, could you tell me why you dropped out of the NAACP? Norman: Uh, it's just neglect on my part. No, uh, no specific distaste for the NAACP, but I just said it's neglect on my part. Really. Johnson: Did you-- you didn't really find-- in essence, you didn't find any fault with the organization as a whole, just neglect, like you said, on your on your individual. Norman: Yeah, it's my own individual neglect. There are some fallacies in it, but I-- Johnson: Would you wish to expound on it.

Norman: Well, the NAACP, like the Urban League and the SCLC, they're good organizations, but there are too many of them we're too fragmented in that area. We have too many organizations. And with no central leadership at the top to combine the forces of these organizations for the betterment of the Black community. And we have too many of them. Johnson: Okay. Let's get briefly into your family history again. Do you remember your grandparents by any chance? And if you do, what do you remember about them that stands out? Norman: I remember grandma, my mother's mother. Very little. But she was a-- she was part, part Negro or whatever you want to call it. And part Seminole Indian. Johnson: Seminole. Norman: Yeah. Johnson: Florida. Norman: Florida? That's right. Uh, she had features of an Indian. Long hair, very dark, reddish looking skin with the long, sharp nose. My mother had the same features and very stately looking woman. Very proud woman. I can remember those features of grandma. Johnson: Did she ever relate to you on any occasion her seminal culture? You know, did she tend to, you know, relate not only to the Black culture, but to the seminal culture as well? Norman: She related more to the Black culture. Yeah. Johnson: That's pretty interesting. That's the first time I ever heard of that. Norman: Yeah. Johnson: Uh, what about the birthplace of your parents? Do you remember the state? County? Norman: The same. The same general area where I was born? Johnson: In Lincoln County? Norman: Yeah. Lincoln County, Georgia.

Johnson: Where's the approximate location of Lincoln County, Georgia, in terms of-- Norman: Of another big city? Johnson: Yeah. Norman: About-- I understand it's about 52 miles out of Macon. Johnson: Macon. Did your family move to Pittsburgh from, uh, from down South? Obviously they did. Norman: Yeah. Johnson: Okay. When you and your parents moved into Pittsburgh, you mentioned that you moved into the Braddock area. Why did your parents choose the Braddock area as opposed to right in the middle of the city? Norman: My stepfather had relatives in this area, and he came about three months before we came and got a home and bought furniture and got situated in this area. And he got a job in the rank and wire mill with US Steel, where his relatives lived. This is my stepfather, Robert Dallas. And this is why we moved into this particular area. Johnson: It was a matter of economics? Norman: economics, purely. Johnson: Your father-- did your mother ever do any work outside the home to substantiate an income? Norman: Yeah. She used to do what we call day work. She'd cleaned the houses in Wilkinsburg, Edgewood and what is now called Churchville Borough. Johnson: Yeah. Very exclusive borough. Norman: Yeah. Johnson: Yeah, very. Norman: This was in her later years. She worked for some very nice people up there. Johnson: How many brothers and sisters do you have? Norman: There are five of us brothers and three sisters. Johnson: Anyone else share your home with the immediate family? Like relatives or boarders? Norman: Yes, my mother, uh, took in my stepfather's sister's son, and she kept him with us.

Norman: He and I slept in the same bed together for about nine years. Yeah. Martin is his name. Johnson: How many children do you have now? Norman: I have five. Four girls and one boy. Johnson: Okay. We'll get a little bit of education and work history. Do you have any specific type of training? Norman: In the work area? Johnson: Yes. Technical. Norman: No technical training. I am a qualified burner. I did learn tack welding and burning at the Naval shipyard on Naval Island. And from that I went into demolition, scrap yards and I'm in, I'm in a union now that covers demolition and the building trades. Johnson: What union is that? Norman: That's local 373. The building trade. That's the union which I'm the candidate for, for president of at this-- right at this moment. Our election will come up in May of this of this year. I'm a candidate for president of that union. Johnson: Let me ask you a question. How many Blacks are in the union approximately? Norman: Well, uh. As it's constituted now, I would say about 40% Black, about 60% White. Johnson: And you say your chances of becoming president of this union is pretty good, then. Norman: Very good. Very good. I've never run for office before in this union, but I've been very active in other election campaigns. I've been election campaign chairman for other people, some winners and some losers. And I feel it's my time to take a try at it now. Johnson: Do you remember any outstanding winners? Norman: I, uh, I ran a campaign for one of the fellows that ran, uh, about 12, 13 years ago, and he became the business agent.

Norman: However, we had a falling out shortly after his election because of some of his, uh, shall we say, underhanded activities after he was elected. And we had a falling out about that. And, uh, he's still in the local, but he's no longer the business manager. He's just another laborer again. Johnson: Okay. Do you remember your first job? And if you do, how old were you when you first got that job? And was it in the Pittsburgh area? If outside Pittsburgh area, where? Norman: I distinctly remember my first so-called job where I earned my first dollar. A whole $1 bill. Not pennies, nickels, dimes and quarters. This was in the cemetery years ago. Uh, Decoration Day used to be a big day in the cemetery, which was about 6 or 8 blocks from where I was raised up. We used to play in this cemetery, and we used to go up into the cemetery with the people to get the graves in condition for the big Decoration Day celebration. And I, along with another fellow, helped resod a grave. That's cutting the sod and taking it up and putting it around the grave and tamping it down with topsoil and watering it down good. And the man, I think, gave us $3 and I got a whole dollar bill. And that change--

Norman: And it almost blew my blew my mind. I had a dollar. And this was years ago when I was in grade school. But my next real job after that came with-- I was introduced to golf. I became a caddy. And incidentally, I still try to play golf. I earned, uh, sometimes 2, $3 a day on weekends, especially on holidays. And I'd get a whole dollar and I'd shoot home and give it to Mother. Johnson: Where did you caddy at? Norman: Old Edgewood Country Club. Old Edgewood country club. Sounds Great. Norman: This was years ago.

Johnson: Okay. When was your first income? Uh, when did you receive your first income? Did you start to support others other than yourself? Norman: Other than myself? Well, in those days when I was caddying, I'd take that money home to Mother, and she would put some of it on the table and some of it in that icebox. And we had a real icebox. In those days we didn't have a Frigidaire with 2 or 3 doors on it or Defreeze. We had a real icebox with the ice man bringing the ice twice a week. Yeah, this was way back in the in the 30s. Johnson: Okay. You had numerous other jobs probably since the-- Norman: Oh no doubt. Since the caddying and-- Norman: Yes. Johnson: Uh, what jobs do you remember best. Good and bad about it. Norman: Well. Johnson: Like, highest paying. Doing what? Where? Norman: I, um. I had a yearning desire. You know, you're reared up in the steel mill area, and most of the fellows that work in the mills, like in Braddock or Rankin or Homestead, they seem to be making the big dollar.

Norman: So you have your eyes set on something in that, in that area, too. You know, I did have a job. I did get a job finally in Braddock in the steel mill, and I worked there nine months. I think that was my first big paycheck, if you want to call it that. It was about 70 or 80 cents an hour. Johnson: When was this? Norman: This was after I graduated from high school. I graduated from Scott High School in North Braddock in 1935, and after I came back home from school, I went to Virginia Union University for two years and one summer and I came back home summer of 37. And I was fortunate enough to get in there for a little while. And then the recession set in and I had to hit the bricks just like everyone else. Last hired, first put out. I was a laborer, and I think that was my first big paycheck. Johnson: What about any other jobs that stick out in your mind? Norman: I, um, I started out over in Wilkinsburg as a part time man with the Allegheny Cigarette Service Company. Uh, as a part time man delivering and collecting vending machines. Cleaning them and replacing the mechanisms inside that were broken down and bringing them back to the shop to be repaired.

Norman: And I made all of $18 a week on that job. That was another job that I, uh, I hold a fond recollection for because I, from a part time man, I became the the shop foreman in the repair department. I stayed with that company nine years, but I finally just walked away from it. Johnson: For what reason? Norman: Um, some people are very-- I really don't know what word to use. Very deceptive. When you're ambitious, you know, you don't see a lot of things. You're trying to get ahead. You're trying to make money. You're trying to make good. And. You're very willing to to apply yourself. At least you should be. And I did. I applied myself with that company. Like I said, I was with that company nine years, but the financial end of it wasn't coming in. I had started a family and buying a home in the Homewood Brushton area, and I was putting in all 60 hours a week for $80 a week. And I. Yeah, I went to the president of the company and I talked it over with him several times, but he always patted me on the back and made me feel that you're a Black man, you know, you're getting over big. You know, you're a foreman. But it was a lot of bull to me. After I began to realize I was getting about a dollar a quarter an hour where I should have been getting, uh, $3 an hour or better, you know, because the job that I took-- I had rather I got it after the man that trained me--

Norman: had a heart attack and died at 47. It was a fine man named Mason. He's a graduate of Carnegie Tech. He was an engineer. He graduated from Tech in 27. Anyway, this man and-- I didn't have the background, you know, but I had the knowledge from a practical, practical point of view. And I was doing the job. And this man, when he had this heart attack and died, he he was making about $115 or $120 a week, which was pretty good, plus his expenses. And I got no expenses and $80 a week. And I worked, like I said, about 60 hours a week for this little $80. And I was getting a pat on the back and, and being told how great I was, but no money. And at this time, at that point, I had a wife and one child and I needed some money. So I went out there and got myself a job in a foundry, worked there five years, and I left there in a union fight. Johnson: Where was the foundry located at? Around the edge of Wilkinsburg and Pittsburgh line. It's a small place. They only employed about 60 or 70 people. And very dusty and very hazardous, you know, to your health. The dust. The air was thick with dust all day long, every day and every night. If you worked in a foundry--

Norman: You'd find that out. Anyway, I worked there five years, and then I left there after I got in this hassle-- in this union brawl and went into heavy construction. I went into heavy construction then. And that was 1058 under Nick Sterrone [??]. You may have heard about him or read about it. I stayed with him for about four years in that local. And then I moved from there into the demolition local. And from the demolition local after it, or just before it went bankrupt. And the international confiscated the charter and all its belongings and took that local and put it into local 373. That's where I am now. However, I had left 178. The demolition local about a year before that and applied for and got membership in the 373. That's where I am now. Johnson: You briefly mentioned this this union brawl. What type of-- was this-- did it get to the point where it was violent, you know, things like that there? Norman: Well, I have been knocked down a couple of times because of my opinion and my big mouth. This is union politics. This is the infighting in union politics, which causes it causes physical contact, sometimes. We have we have a man in the grave right now, but we can't prove just why he's there. Johnson: Would you like to expound a little bit more on that, or is it too personal? Norman: It's not that personal, but. You don't like to talk about things that you can't substantiate.

Norman: But we have we have our suspicions about some people involved. Johnson: You mentioned briefly that you went to college for two years. Uh, what was your major then? Norman: I majored in English. I wanted to be a newspaper man and get on the staff and be a writer for the Pittsburgh Courier. Mr. Vann who, who was my mother's attorney. See, when we came here from Georgia, mother had my dad's insurance money from the First World War. And my mother was a complete illiterate and my stepfather could just barely read and write his name. And as I said, mother was a complete illiterate and someone directed mother to to Robert L. Vann, the editor and owner of the Pittsburgh Courier, located on Center Avenue at the time. And she took me by the hand one day because we had papers from Lincoln and Georgia, from the courthouse and people in Lincoln and told us to get a lawyer and get in touch with someone here in the area. After we got here so that mother would continue to receive, uh, this monthly compensation for me until I became 18 years of age. That was a benefit, you know, from the, uh, from my dad, from the First World War. Okay. So we went to Mr. Vann, a Black attorney who had a good reputation, and he handled the case for us. And this is where I met Mr. Vann. Mr. Vann had already graduated from Virginia Union--

Norman: Years ago and had his newspaper and was very active in politics in the area. Pittsburgh area. And after I graduated from Scott High School, he encouraged me to go to Virginia Union. So he told me, you go to Virginia Union, you have a little money. We had about $1,900 in Braddock in the bank that had been accumulated from my dad's insurance. So I took off and went to Virginia Union under his advisement. Johnson: Why did-- why didn't you finish the two years? Norman: Oh, well, that little money got away. See, the money wasn't in what we might consider a savings. The money was tied up in mortgage pool. I'm not too familiar with all the tactics of mortgage pool that they had it invested in, but mortgage was being liquidated very slow. And sometimes for a whole year you wouldn't get enough money to buy a suit out of your your investment. It was liquidated on the basis of, I think, percentages. For instance, if you had $10,000 tied up in it and I had a thousand. When it would be liquidated and every, every year you would get a certain percentage back, you got ten times as much as I had in it. Why, naturally, you should receive more of your investment back than I have. This is, this is Mr. Gosser. I remember the gentleman's name. Mr. Gosser tried to explain it to me, but it didn't quite soak in. And at times I wouldn't have enough money to to negotiate my financial obligations.

Norman: But I did work in the John Marshall, the Jefferson and those hotels there at night in the city of Richmond to augment that little income while I was there. And I stayed there as I said, one summer. Took a 12 week course, one summer and worked in the hotels, and I made out financially. And I was encouraged to come home in the summer of 37 by my parents with the hope and intention of picking up more money by being home, not having to pay room and board and what have you You know, and then I'd have sufficient funds to go back in the following September, but I couldn't find a job that summer. I couldn't find a job. And I fell by the wayside. And I never I never got up to go back. Johnson: Do you have any regrets that you never could go back and take advantage of? Norman: Naturally, I do. Yes. I, I often say to myself, now if things things are good to me after I'm retired, I just may take a shot at some local institution here in the city to try to, try to do something about it, because I don't have time on my hands and no money. And that would be the good thing for me to be involved in. I thought about that because some-- 2 or 3 friends of mine had done this and I think it's a good thing.

Johnson: When you moved here to Pittsburgh, when you moved to the Braddock area, um, what was the neighborhood like? You know, what was the-- was it just primarily Black people or was it Blacks and Whites or. Norman: It was a very poor neighborhood. It was a mixed neighborhood. We had Slavs, Poles, not many Italians in the area that you might think you'd find in a neighborhood made up of this, this type. We had the Slavs, the Poles, the Austrians, the Hungarians and, and the Blacks. Irish were scattered here and there in the area, in the particular area where I lived. In fact, when we-- all of us played together, worked together-- caddied together when I say worked. At that time. And a lot of them worked in the steel mills, of course, or in related industries, and we got along real good. We got along real good. In fact, I used to be called the Black Hunky. I did. I used to speak Slavic quite fluently. They taught me. Johnson: Well tell me, in your neighborhood, did you remember the street specifically? Just, just one specific point. Norman: You mean where I live? Johnson: Yeah. Norman: Yeah.

Johnson: Does that street still exist? Norman: Still there. Mother's, mother's old house. 2 or 3 lots. But the house's burned down now. But they-- the lots, I guess, are still in our name. In my father's and mother's name. If the tax people haven't confiscated them for back taxes because I don't think my sister paid them.

Norman: I really don't know. I know the street, though. That's Braddock and Ardmore Road. Johnson: Oh, yeah. Over there by the bridge. Just around the edge of North Braddock. Johnson: What were some of the hardest problems, you know, facing you here in the Pittsburgh area while growing up? Norman: The hardest problem? Johnson: Some of the hardest problems. Norman: Uh, you mean while I was, while I was [Johnson: While you were--] a child or as a, as an adult? Johnson: I imagine, from being a child into manhood. Norman: The hardest problem? Uh, I think the hardest problem about growing up as a child, you know, you really don't-- you don't get involved too much with problems. You're involved with playing ball or going to school. And then you do see differences, you know, between the races. You see the differences. You see there's a language barrier in some spots, like like we had we had a lot of the older people out of Europe. Some couldn't speak English. There was a language barrier there. But you could relate to the children, you know, or to the grandchildren. But after you grow up and then you look for something sound economically, then you begin to feel the crunch of the differences. You see the differences then. They surface. Children that you grew up with-- White. They could find jobs. Blacks. Jobs were scarce for them. I mean, meaningful jobs. Meaningful jobs. I mean, jobs in the mills that-- where you could make an honest and decent living.

Norman: They were very scarce for us Blacks. We all grew up together. We went to the same schools, read out of the same books. But when you got to the employment office, you'd find a difference. And a lot of the White boys that I grew up with played football with at Scott High School wrestled with out in the streets. They could get a job looked like automatically. Where we had to scrounge and scuffle and wait and be fooled and misled. Come back tomorrow. We're not hiring this week and they'd continue to hire the White boys. Any number of those-- this was this was a very, very distasteful thing to me. You know, I always figured, well, Steve got a job and Steve Balkovec got a job over there. I'll go down. And he told me to go over there and apply. I'll go and apply. But Steve and Mike Yankovich and Herznach and all those boys that I grew up with and played ball with went to high school with, they get hired looked like automatically. And Tom Bradford, Black brother, he and I, we could hardly find a job. These boys were steady buying-- getting jobs and we were steady walking. We walked. We didn't ride. We walked to Homestead, Duquesne, Clairton, Braddock, Rankin. We walked. Westinghouse, [??] Air Brakes. We walked. We get up early in the morning before the sun come up, start walking with a lunch with a sandwich and an apple.

Norman: We'd go to these these mill gates. And the man in those days, they used to come out and there would be 30 or 40 fellas out, out, right out of the gate. And the man would come out and say, okay, you, you, you, you, you and you. And you. And you. He'd hired ten, 15 guys, not one Black one. You know, we get turned off naturally. So we said, hey, they're hiring at the Union Steel casting at 62nd and Butler. How do you get there. You know, that's true. So we'd get together, we'd we'd get a fella-- there was a fellow named James Howser. And he used to-- he had an old raggedy Buick. And we used to pot up money and pay him to take us over there. He'd take us. We couldn't get hired, though. The man come out to the gate, just like they said. I don't hit 62nd. And Butler. You, you, you, you, you, you, you. He'd hire ten, 15 men. Maybe one Black. Black would have to have a letter of introduction from some other Black who was fortunate enough to be working on the inside and the man would come out and say, hey, Joe Jones, you here? Yeah, come on over here. He'd hired Joe Jones because Joe Jones had a relative or an in-law or a cousin working in there that got to the man before he went out the gate. Okay? Then he come out the gate, he'd hire 15 men.

Norman: He had Joe Jones a Black, and then he'd hire 14 Whites. Maybe one more Black, maybe two. Johnson: Maybe. Norman: Maybe. That's right. A slim maybe. This was-- that was the practice. And when it came to the time, they got a little more sophisticated in their hiring practices, they wouldn't come to the gate, go in and fill out an application. We want to find out your qualifications. You go in, you ask for an application. Sure, you fill it out. And they had a system. They marked the system. They marked the application. After they took it from you. Marked it whether it was Black, Italian, Polish, Slavish or Irish. Now, here's another thing. The geography of your home meant something. For instance, you apply your name is Tom Sweitzer. You apply your mailing address is 1039 Mount View Drive, Penn Hills. Okay. My home address, Six Street, Braddock. That made a difference. The geography of the location of your home made a difference. A lot of people don't believe that, but that's the gospel. Johnson: Do you think it's still practiced today? Norman: Very definitely. Very definitely. If you're applying for something big. If you're applying for something big, something in the neighborhood, of 12, $15,000 and you're both qualified. You're both qualified. I mean, even two Whites, I'm being told that if even two Whites apply, if Joe Jones is White and has a mailing address, that 5708 Mt. Lebanon someplace, and another Joe is from Aetna or Lawrenceville, two Whites--